Curious, so I looked up baseball owners net worth from an article Nov 2020.  Sherman is second to last, so we are not competing.  https://www.audacy.com/sports/mlb/gallery/the-richest-mlb-owners-ranked-by-net-worth

1 hour ago, fish53 said:

Curious, so I looked up baseball owners net worth from an article Nov 2020.  Sherman is second to last, so we are not competing.  https://www.audacy.com/sports/mlb/gallery/the-richest-mlb-owners-ranked-by-net-worth

What I saw from that list were also the Pirates and Rays with higher wealth owners and still low payrolls.   So richer owners doesn't necessarily mean more spending.

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

What I saw from that list were also the Pirates and Rays with higher wealth owners and still low payrolls.   So richer owners doesn't necessarily mean more spending.

BOOM

It's the same position or not ?

1 hour ago, taiwanmarlin said:

It's the same position or not ?

Sure sounds like it.  But without looking into it, I’d assume one works under the other?

9 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

Sure sounds like it.  But without looking into it, I’d assume one works under the other?

Could be a Position 1 and Position A situation, so equal footing for both?

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

Sure sounds like it.  But without looking into it, I’d assume one works under the other?

What I'm more concerned would be the authenticity of the hiring of Roman Ocumarez, not official yet. Anyone know how's his reputation ?

1 hour ago, taiwanmarlin said:

What I'm more concerned would be the authenticity of the hiring of Roman Ocumarez, not official yet. Anyone know how's his reputation ?

According to Fish Stripes :

" With the Astros, he was directly involved with signing future big leaguers Luis García, Framber Valdez, Cristian Javier, Enoli Paredes, Hector Pérez, Gilberto Celestino and recent Marlin Jorge Guzman. "

6 hours ago, taiwanmarlin said:

It's the same position or not ?

Sounds like Lorenzo is above Ocumarez like many teams have a President of Baseball Operations above the GM. 

 

To everyone who has been applauding the Marlins offseason part 1 approach:

forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2021/12/22/2021-mlb-final-player-payrolls-show-168m-drop-from-last-full-season-heres-every-team/?sh=7b5265fb3999

 

I have zero faith they would actually pony up the 80-100 million it would take for Conforto so its just a highly entertaning hilarious story.

 

You Marlin fans should be fucking LIVID at Jeter/Sherman if this payroll doesnt go north of 75 million, this free agent class has had many things the Marlins need to get into playoff contention, but so far they have signed a starting pitcher they controlled fully and who's contract  number for this year would have been the same more or less, contract or none (but it sounds good they did this) and an outfielder who left money on the table to goto the Marlins for some reason (also good on the Marlins) but who is probably a downgrade overall from what they had with Starling Marte last year.

This team has A LOT of work left to do once this lockout ends.  

Anything less than significant expenditures of propects (only real option for a CF now) and/or money is a total failure and is 100% on this miserly ownership.  (Worse than Loria)

Merry Christmas folks!

1 hour ago, Das Texan said:

To everyone who has been applauding the Marlins offseason part 1 approach:

forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2021/12/22/2021-mlb-final-player-payrolls-show-168m-drop-from-last-full-season-heres-every-team/?sh=7b5265fb3999

 

I have zero faith they would actually pony up the 80-100 million it would take for Conforto so its just a highly entertaning hilarious story.

 

You Marlin fans should be fucking LIVID at Jeter/Sherman if this payroll doesnt go north of 75 million, this free agent class has had many things the Marlins need to get into playoff contention, but so far they have signed a starting pitcher they controlled fully and who's contract  number for this year would have been the same more or less, contract or none (but it sounds good they did this) and an outfielder who left money on the table to goto the Marlins for some reason (also good on the Marlins) but who is probably a downgrade overall from what they had with Starling Marte last year.

This team has A LOT of work left to do once this lockout ends.  

Anything less than significant expenditures of propects (only real option for a CF now) and/or money is a total failure and is 100% on this miserly ownership.  (Worse than Loria)

Merry Christmas folks!

The big point here of payroll needs to be north of $75m (absent insane liquidate the farm scenarios) is true. The Florida Panthers payroll is $81.4m for less players. If hockey at an outlet mall in the everglades is (radically) outspending you, you should feel embarrassed. Especially after a 3-4 year tear down, your going forward books are very clean with no longterm contracts of note (Sandy isn't expensive), new naming rights, and a new TV deal. 

But, the cumulative gain of Garcia, Wendle, Stallings, Head, and 3 extra years of Sandy, for Thompson, Misner, Nicolas, C. Scott, and reasonable money is a big improvement. I'm not going to let a lockdown delay add to frustration. We do this every year - just wait till spring training as things happen late. 

This is a good team below, and I think it would be around $63m once all the final numbers are sorted out. "Contending" clubs would call them pesky as there is some very elite pitching and solid starters across the board (absent CF of course). 

Stallings, Jackson/Fortes
Aguilar, Cooper
Jazz
Rojas, Wendle
Anderson
Sanchez, DLC
________, _______
Garcia

Sandy, Rogers, Pablo, Luzardo, Cabrera
Floro, Bender, Bass, Elisier, Pop, Head
Bleier, Okert

I'm not sure how you can see that team, which you can easily project at 35+ WAR when healthy, and combined with a bottom 3 payroll in baseball, and not go for it. It's front office malpractice if those blank lines are getting a defensive CF in FA for cheap and keeping Berti.

The path is easy, and anything less than this is a failure:

1 - Sign Correa/Bryant and trade for a CF/more pitching with minor leaguers (and whoever of Anderson, Aguilar, or Cooper you are jettisoning). Since this won't happen...

2 - I'd trade the house for something like Ketel Marte and Caleb Smith (lefty) - Meyer/Watson and friends. Then, trade Pablo and Bass(salary dump) to the Angels for Brandon Marsh and other prospects in their system (which effectively nets out the 3rd and beyond players for Ketel, so you've traded Pablo, Meyer, Watson, and Bass, for Ketel (3 years), Marsh (6 years), and Caleb (3 years). Your payroll has probably moved to $70m at this point and the blank lines are Ketel and Marsh, and Caleb replaces Bass as a pen lefty. Then, you're STILL at $70m and this is where you spend $15-20m on pure luxury upgrades, which is effectively getting pitching upgrades. There are 1-2 pitchers you can easily sign for $15-20m that makes sense.

You are deep AF in the field with double redundancy at every position besides C to deal with injuries, including getting a star in Ketel and another potential future star in Marsh. I'm assuming you use the $$$ wisely on pitching to help deflect losing Pablo, but that is something you can easily deal with for a radical bat upgrade

Who is LIVID with this at probably $90m - which is still bottom 10 in baseball. It's great now, and everyone is coming back besides Aguilar or a reliever next year pretty much.

Stallings, Jackson/Fortes
Aguilar, Cooper
Jazz
Rojas, Wendle
Anderson
Sanchez, DLC
KETEL, MARSH
Garcia

Sandy, Rogers, RODON OR SOMEONE ELSE GOOD, Luzardo, Cabrera
Floro, Bender, Elisier, Pop, Head
Bleier, C.SMITH, Okert

Farm - Sixto, Eury, Bleday, Lewin, Eder, Burdick, Mack, Salas, I. Lewis, Cappe, guys from Angels, and excellent 2022 draft picks. Other replacement arms like Neidert, Poteet, and Garrett are here still too if they worked themselves out.

 

This isn't hard. They have the depth to blow out 2-4 major players/prospects and get 2-3 play now guys. Anything less and they don't care, or didn't try hard enough. They spent four years clearing the books and developing prospects for this offseason. The time is now. Or I'm just going to watch hockey.

57 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

The big point here of payroll needs to be north of $75m (absent insane liquidate the farm scenarios) is true. The Florida Panthers payroll is $81.4m for less players. If hockey at an outlet mall in the everglades is (radically) outspending you, you should feel embarrassed. Especially after a 3-4 year tear down, your going forward books are very clean with no longterm contracts of note (Sandy isn't expensive), new naming rights, and a new TV deal. 

But, the cumulative gain of Garcia, Wendle, Stallings, Head, and 3 extra years of Sandy, for Thompson, Misner, Nicolas, C. Scott, and reasonable money is a big improvement. I'm not going to let a lockdown delay add to frustration. We do this every year - just wait till spring training as things happen late. 

This is a good team below, and I think it would be around $63m once all the final numbers are sorted out. "Contending" clubs would call them pesky as there is some very elite pitching and solid starters across the board (absent CF of course). 

Stallings, Jackson/Fortes
Aguilar, Cooper
Jazz
Rojas, Wendle
Anderson
Sanchez, DLC
________, _______
Garcia

Sandy, Rogers, Pablo, Luzardo, Cabrera
Floro, Bender, Bass, Elisier, Pop, Head
Bleier, Okert

I'm not sure how you can see that team, which you can easily project at 35+ WAR when healthy, and combined with a bottom 3 payroll in baseball, and not go for it. It's front office malpractice if those blank lines are getting a defensive CF in FA for cheap and keeping Berti.

The path is easy, and anything less than this is a failure:

1 - Sign Correa/Bryant and trade for a CF/more pitching with minor leaguers (and whoever of Anderson, Aguilar, or Cooper you are jettisoning). Since this won't happen...

2 - I'd trade the house for something like Ketel Marte and Caleb Smith (lefty) - Meyer/Watson and friends. Then, trade Pablo and Bass(salary dump) to the Angels for Brandon Marsh and other prospects in their system (which effectively nets out the 3rd and beyond players for Ketel, so you've traded Pablo, Meyer, Watson, and Bass, for Ketel (3 years), Marsh (6 years), and Caleb (3 years). Your payroll has probably moved to $70m at this point and the blank lines are Ketel and Marsh, and Caleb replaces Bass as a pen lefty. Then, you're STILL at $70m and this is where you spend $15-20m on pure luxury upgrades, which is effectively getting pitching upgrades. There are 1-2 pitchers you can easily sign for $15-20m that makes sense.

You are deep AF in the field with double redundancy at every position besides C to deal with injuries, including getting a star in Ketel and another potential future star in Marsh. I'm assuming you use the $$$ wisely on pitching to help deflect losing Pablo, but that is something you can easily deal with for a radical bat upgrade

Who is LIVID with this at probably $90m - which is still bottom 10 in baseball. It's great now, and everyone is coming back besides Aguilar or a reliever next year pretty much.

Stallings, Jackson/Fortes
Aguilar, Cooper
Jazz
Rojas, Wendle
Anderson
Sanchez, DLC
KETEL, MARSH
Garcia

Sandy, Rogers, RODON OR SOMEONE ELSE GOOD, Luzardo, Cabrera
Floro, Bender, Elisier, Pop, Head
Bleier, C.SMITH, Okert

Farm - Sixto, Eury, Bleday, Lewin, Eder, Burdick, Mack, Salas, I. Lewis, Cappe, guys from Angels, and excellent 2022 draft picks. Other replacement arms like Neidert, Poteet, and Garrett are here still too if they worked themselves out.

 

This isn't hard. They have the depth to blow out 2-4 major players/prospects and get 2-3 play now guys. Anything less and they don't care, or didn't try hard enough. They spent four years clearing the books and developing prospects for this offseason. The time is now. Or I'm just going to watch hockey.

Pretty much spot on and anything less than something along these lines just solidifies for me (though many will continue to support this group) that this ownership group is far and away cheaper and more miserly than Jeff Loria.

I mean there are other ways to achieve these end results, but end of day, whether its done in this scenario or a similar scenario, not ponying up for a Carlos Correa is stupid at this point hoenstly.  

You know what it will take, just spend the fucking money, its not like this organization is fucking handcuffed here with expenditures.  

Next years free agent class is more or less warmed over dogshit.  This is the time to strike and acquire a cornerstone piece.  

The only one really left is Correa and your competition is what exactly?  The Astros who say they wont go past 6 years?  Once this lockout ends, go call up Scott, tell him you will give Carlos 10 years and pay him an AAV of 32 million and ask Scott when he wants to schedule the presser.  

Correa actually fits a positional need far more than Bryant as well so thats an added bonus. 

Oh and the Marlins should be all in on a Carlos Rodon as well.  

Fits another big need this organization has. 

Get the two Carlos' , then figure something out in CF since you were too fucking cheap to sign Marte to an extension last summer (aka its going to cost more now cause you are stupid) and get ready to enjoy baseball in 2022.

4 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

Pretty much spot on and anything less than something along these lines just solidifies for me (though many will continue to support this group) that this ownership group is far and away cheaper and more miserly than Jeff Loria.

I mean there are other ways to achieve these end results, but end of day, whether its done in this scenario or a similar scenario, not ponying up for a Carlos Correa is stupid at this point hoenstly.  

You know what it will take, just spend the fucking money, its not like this organization is fucking handcuffed here with expenditures.  

Next years free agent class is more or less warmed over dogshit.  This is the time to strike and acquire a cornerstone piece.  

The only one really left is Correa and your competition is what exactly?  The Astros who say they wont go past 6 years?  Once this lockout ends, go call up Scott, tell him you will give Carlos 10 years and pay him an AAV of 32 million and ask Scott when he wants to schedule the presser.  

Correa actually fits a positional need far more than Bryant as well so thats an added bonus. 

And that's why I think it's important to keep hammering this home - whoever continues to support this ownership group if the rest of the offseason is a whiff is an asshole. 

There are no more, we tried and it didn't happen and give them the benefit of the doubt. The Texas Rangers suck and they signed two middle infielders to arguably too much money to put a product out for their fans and attempt to get better. 

This is it. Show us you want to win, or see ya never. The Mets are spending like drunk sailers. The Braves just won the world series without Acuna. The Phillies are kind of a mess, but they have an elite top end and ownership will spend. The Nationals obviously will spend even if they need a year or two to clear some stuff out. It's not like the NL East situation is ever going to improve. You got these pitchers and a few solid position players controlled for years right now. The books are clean. You have a solid complimentary crew. The minimum, should be doing an $80-90m payroll like above and strategically using prospects. But they should really do something like those Ketel and Marsh trades above, AND sign Correa and Rodon/other SP. It's still a middle of the pack payroll under probably $140m, and holy, holy, crap that's a team. It's Dodgersesque.

Go kick people's asses and the fans will come. South Florida loves a winner. It may take a year or two for fans not to expect another fire sale, so just do it, don't trade the entire team in 2 years, and invest in your business (which such investment is lower than half the league!).

 

9 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

And that's why I think it's important to keep hammering this home - whoever continues to support this ownership group if the rest of the offseason is a whiff is an asshole. 

There are no more, we tried and it didn't happen and give them the benefit of the doubt. The Texas Rangers suck and they signed two middle infielders to arguably too much money to put a product out for their fans and attempt to get better. 

This is it. Show us you want to win, or see ya never. The Mets are spending like drunk sailers. The Braves just won the world series without Acuna. The Phillies are kind of a mess, but they have an elite top end and ownership will spend. The Nationals obviously will spend even if they need a year or two to clear some stuff out. It's not like the NL East situation is ever going to improve. You got these pitchers and a few solid position players controlled for years right now. The books are clean. You have a solid complimentary crew. The minimum, should be doing an $80-90m payroll like above and strategically using prospects. But they should really do something like those Ketel and Marsh trades above, AND sign Correa and Rodon/other SP. It's still a middle of the pack payroll under probably $140m, and holy, holy, crap that's a team. It's Dodgersesque.

Go kick people's asses and the fans will come. South Florida loves a winner. It may take a year or two for fans not to expect another fire sale, so just do it, don't trade the entire team in 2 years, and invest in your business (which such investment is lower than half the league!).

 

With the pitching wealth of this organization, it seriously would be criminal to not pony up the bucks to improve this offense (and defense) along the way.

Putting Avasial Garcia in CF is so fucking idiotically stupid, any fan that believes this is a 'smart plan' or even an 'acceptable plan' is a fucking moron.

The media reporting on that idiotic idea to give it some credence and revelance is just as stupid without also calling ownership fucking stupid if thats their grand plan without acknowledging how much of a colossal fuck up they made and made because of their cheap miserly ways.

Fact: Marte wanted to sign with the Marlins

Fact: Marte could have been signed in July for less than he signed for in November.

Fact: Marlins front office refuse to actually acknowledge they misplayed and fucked that one up (they wont)

Hopefully not a fact, but given their history : Marlins refused to actually correct their fuck up by spending the capital to acquire a legit center fielder.

 

There has been nothing shown by this ownership group to this point to prove they are a better ownership group than Jeff Loria, hell they are worse than Loria, they just have a more favorable public image because Derek Jeter is around. 

People bitch that Loria never intended to pay players thats why he backloaded contracts, but the fact remains: THEY GOT THE PLAYERS TO AGREE AND SIGN THE FUCKING CONTRACT.

I said it long ago, if they Marlins are going to be taken seriously, they are going to have to overpay for a free agent or two, due in large because of the past actions of this organization.

The Nationals had to do that with Jayson Werth to convince people they werent the Expos anymore and they were seriously largely.

The Marlins are going to be forced to do that if they want to be taken seriously both by the media and premier free agents. 

 

So just go fucking sign the two Carlos' change the perception and win a lot of games along the way.

oh and the NL East, especially if the Braves dont sign Freeman, like a bunch of morons, is an absolutely winnable division with the right moves.

Sadly, most people here think it's acceptable for not to sign Correa because their name is Miami Marlins …

28 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Sadly, most people here think it's acceptable for not to sign Correa because their name is Miami Marlins …

It isn't acceptable, it is just realistic. They won't sign him or anyone close to that level of commitment.

4 hours ago, Das Texan said:

To everyone who has been applauding the Marlins offseason part 1 approach:

forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2021/12/22/2021-mlb-final-player-payrolls-show-168m-drop-from-last-full-season-heres-every-team/?sh=7b5265fb3999

 

I have zero faith they would actually pony up the 80-100 million it would take for Conforto so its just a highly entertaning hilarious story.

 

You Marlin fans should be fucking LIVID at Jeter/Sherman if this payroll doesnt go north of 75 million, this free agent class has had many things the Marlins need to get into playoff contention, but so far they have signed a starting pitcher they controlled fully and who's contract  number for this year would have been the same more or less, contract or none (but it sounds good they did this) and an outfielder who left money on the table to goto the Marlins for some reason (also good on the Marlins) but who is probably a downgrade overall from what they had with Starling Marte last year.

This team has A LOT of work left to do once this lockout ends.  

Anything less than significant expenditures of propects (only real option for a CF now) and/or money is a total failure and is 100% on this miserly ownership.  (Worse than Loria)

Merry Christmas folks!

 

You seem to think everyone's in a circle singing kumbaya and thinking they've done enough. 

 

I think pretty much everyone is in agreement that

1) that the "part 1" of the offseason was a good start.

2) they need to make a few more moves and/or big signings, and it remains to be seen if they will. 

3) Time to move on if they don't do #2.

 

Both 1 and 2 can be true - you can think they had a good start, but also that they need to make more moves.

 

2 hours ago, Das Texan said:

With the pitching wealth of this organization, it seriously would be criminal to not pony up the bucks to improve this offense (and defense) along the way.

Putting Avasial Garcia in CF is so fucking idiotically stupid, any fan that believes this is a 'smart plan' or even an 'acceptable plan' is a fucking moron.

The media reporting on that idiotic idea to give it some credence and revelance is just as stupid without also calling ownership fucking stupid if thats their grand plan without acknowledging how much of a colossal fuck up they made and made because of their cheap miserly ways.

Fact: Marte wanted to sign with the Marlins

Fact: Marte could have been signed in July for less than he signed for in November.

Fact: Marlins front office refuse to actually acknowledge they misplayed and fucked that one up (they wont)

Hopefully not a fact, but given their history : Marlins refused to actually correct their fuck up by spending the capital to acquire a legit center fielder.

 

There has been nothing shown by this ownership group to this point to prove they are a better ownership group than Jeff Loria, hell they are worse than Loria, they just have a more favorable public image because Derek Jeter is around. 

People bitch that Loria never intended to pay players thats why he backloaded contracts, but the fact remains: THEY GOT THE PLAYERS TO AGREE AND SIGN THE FUCKING CONTRACT.

I said it long ago, if they Marlins are going to be taken seriously, they are going to have to overpay for a free agent or two, due in large because of the past actions of this organization.

The Nationals had to do that with Jayson Werth to convince people they werent the Expos anymore and they were seriously largely.

The Marlins are going to be forced to do that if they want to be taken seriously both by the media and premier free agents. 

 

So just go fucking sign the two Carlos' change the perception and win a lot of games along the way.

Yes, although I would quib I'd rather have Luzardo and $70m versus a 33 -36 year old Starling Marte. I like Marte, but I'll take a swing on Luzardo and the money versus Marte maintaining this at 35-36 years old.

But, they haven't addressed CF, or another star transaction, so the get an overall failing grade until such acquisition happens. Jayson Werth deal is a perfect example of what they likely need to do. And you know... they positioned themselves for it so it won't matter salary wise with all these club controlled guys.

We'll see what they do, but I want what is left of the fan base to be ready to move on if they do jack shit or make excuses. We know their marketers likely monitor social and web impressions, so I want to make it very clear to them if they see this, coming from a family of past season ticket holders at times that spans back to 1993 and otherwise supporting the team when not a season ticket holder, this is it. You're the asshole if you don't field a winning team day 1 with what you have and recent business improvements (TV, naming, etc.). No excuses.

PLEASE just give me a reason to start watching the Panthers as they actually give a shit and I'll move my irrational fandom to belief in Mario Cristobal. Release me Marlins. Or don't! It's up to you.

Man, y'all need to take a chill pill

I have refused to buy any Marlins gear or items until this new group shows they're serious about winning.  The only thing i've paid for is the out-of-market streaming package to watch games.  This group is smarter than the Loria ran madhouse but they are also even more miserly.  I have a feeling if they had even been at Loria levels of financial flexibility we'd have Realmuto back behind the plate and Marte in CF starting and be in a wonderful shape going into next season with a ridiculous pitching rich farm system to buoy the lineup even more and nab a top flight closer/bp arms.  Anyway, I will refuse to spend a dime on any merch until they show they will spend on the team. 

6 hours ago, Das Texan said:

Oh and the Marlins should be all in on a Carlos Rodon as well.  

Fits another big need this organization has. 

Get the two Carlos' , then figure something out in CF since you were too fucking cheap to sign Marte to an extension last summer (aka its going to cost more now cause you are stupid) and get ready to enjoy baseball in 2022.

We need you to stfu way more than we need Carlos Rodon. 
 

Edit: Merry Christmas, you filthy Cardinals fan.

Edited December 23, 20214 yr by Erick

4 hours ago, Erick said:

We need you to stfu way more than we need Carlos Rodon. 
 

Edit: Merry Christmas, you filthy Cardinals fan.

Wrong.

You need Carlos Rodon as that will cause me to stfu with my criticism of this miserly ownership group.

tbh.

 

Oh and Merry Christmas!