Ditto on Nolasco, although he was decidedly un-special at the beginning last year he was outstanding in 2008 and has been pretty dominant this year.

 

I don't necessarily agree on TB though, although I can't necessarily call all their guys special its evident looking at their rotation that pretty much all their starting pitchers could be aces or really good #2's. Wade Davis, their current #5, may have the best pure stuff of all of them which is one reason why I really scoff at Nate Robertson's existence on this squad as justifiable. Also, looking at their position players, its true that maybe only a couple are genuinely special, but its astounding how pretty much every player on their squad is starting caliber. And what makes the real difference between them and us, or any other genuinely "good" team, is that our hitters as a whole lack plate discipline, while TB's are perhaps the most disciplined in the league.

 

 

We've struck out 6 - count 'em, SIX - more times than Tampa Bay this year.

 

And Anibal, Volstad, Miller and West all have/had #1-#3 SP potential (if not now, they at least had it at some point). Their team is getting to it's prime; ours is about 1-3 years away. And it's kinda ridiculous to choose maybe the deepest pitching staff in the league and then be upset that we aren't as good as they are.

We have the second worst BB/K in the league, only ahead of the Astros. We only have four players with average or better walk rate (Gaby, Hanley, Baker, Barden), and four with average or better BB/K (Replace Barden with Uggla). Josh Johnson has a better walk rate (7.7%) than 9 of our position players, and has more total walks than three of them (BC, Lamb, and Bonifacio has yet to draw a walk, though Boni only had 3 PA).

 

We have the 5th worst walk rate in all of baseball, and the Giants are "beating" us by 0.1% for fourth place.

 

Yeah, Cody, Coghlan, and likely Maybin should see their walk rates rise, and BC has to draw a walk EVENTUALLY, but right now it's fair to say our team is horrible in plate discipline.

We have the second worst BB/K in the league, only ahead of the Astros.

 

Ha, I was just going to write that. We're 29th. Tampa Bay is 11th.

4 starters with average or better BB/K is, well, average. Clearly our overall BB/K sucks, though. I guess our "bad" guys have been awful. I expect/hope Coghlan can regain some of what he had last year.

We have the second worst BB/K in the league, only ahead of the Astros. We only have four players with average or better walk rate (Gaby, Hanley, Baker, Barden), and four with average or better BB/K (Replace Barden with Uggla). Josh Johnson has a better walk rate (7.7%) than 9 of our position players, and has more total walks than three of them (BC, Lamb, and Bonifacio has yet to draw a walk, though Boni only had 3 PA).

 

We have the 5th worst walk rate in all of baseball, and the Giants are "beating" us by 0.1% for fourth place.

 

Yeah, Cody, Coghlan, and likely Maybin should see their walk rates rise, and BC has to draw a walk EVENTUALLY, but right now it's fair to say our team is horrible in plate discipline.

 

 

And that is directly a product of Jim Presley's "All or none" approach as a hitting coach. Our team has had that kind of mindset since he joined the staff.

And what makes the real difference between them and us, or any other genuinely "good" team, is that our hitters as a whole lack plate discipline, while TB's are perhaps the most disciplined in the league.

 

 

Are you talking .obp plate discipline, or just frustrated with the strikeout issues? In terms of on-base it doesn't seem like it should be that way. I mean Coghlin 2009 certainly had good plate discipline. Baker does. Hanley does. Gaby does. Uggla walks plenty. You're left with Cantu and Ross who are valuable despite not great on-base numbers, and Maybin who granted is having issues.

 

 

 

IMO your comments about their rotation get more at the heart of the matter. Although as someone pointed out above, pretty tough to equal their output right now. They won't likely wind up that good.

We have the second worst BB/K in the league, only ahead of the Astros. We only have four players with average or better walk rate (Gaby, Hanley, Baker, Barden), and four with average or better BB/K (Replace Barden with Uggla). Josh Johnson has a better walk rate (7.7%) than 9 of our position players, and has more total walks than three of them (BC, Lamb, and Bonifacio has yet to draw a walk, though Boni only had 3 PA).

 

We have the 5th worst walk rate in all of baseball, and the Giants are "beating" us by 0.1% for fourth place.

 

Yeah, Cody, Coghlan, and likely Maybin should see their walk rates rise, and BC has to draw a walk EVENTUALLY, but right now it's fair to say our team is horrible in plate discipline.

 

 

And that is directly a product of Jim Presley's "All or none" approach as a hitting coach. Our team has had that kind of mindset since he joined the staff.

 

 

I don't have much of a problem with the "all or nothing" approach as long as the "all" part translates into production. Since we're 20th in home runs, 19th in wOBA, and 18th in OPS though, it obviously isn't.

Ditto on Nolasco, although he was decidedly un-special at the beginning last year he was outstanding in 2008 and has been pretty dominant this year.

 

I don't necessarily agree on TB though, although I can't necessarily call all their guys special its evident looking at their rotation that pretty much all their starting pitchers could be aces or really good #2's. Wade Davis, their current #5, may have the best pure stuff of all of them which is one reason why I really scoff at Nate Robertson's existence on this squad as justifiable. Also, looking at their position players, its true that maybe only a couple are genuinely special, but its astounding how pretty much every player on their squad is starting caliber. And what makes the real difference between them and us, or any other genuinely "good" team, is that our hitters as a whole lack plate discipline, while TB's are perhaps the most disciplined in the league.

 

 

We've struck out 6 - count 'em, SIX - more times than Tampa Bay this year.

 

And Anibal, Volstad, Miller and West all have/had #1-#3 SP potential (if not now, they at least had it at some point). Their team is getting to it's prime; ours is about 1-3 years away. And it's kinda ridiculous to choose maybe the deepest pitching staff in the league and then be upset that we aren't as good as they are.

 

It's not strikeouts, its walks and working the count that I'm referring to. As others who have posted after me how shown, their BB rate is much better than ours.

 

I don't where you are getting your ideas about our pitchers, but the only thing I can agree with you on is that Anibal HAD #1-2 potential, that is before he missed most of 3 years with shoulder problems. Its an absolute joke to think of the other guys as potential aces, and at this point we may be lucky if 2/3 of those end up effective back of the rotation guys.

only the Braves el stinko performance as of late is keeping us from the cellar April 30th ! Man this team needs something to shake it up and quick.

I agree things could spiral out of control very quickly here. There's almost nothing good happening with this team. Extremely painful to watch.

If I'm in charge of this team and I see Nate Robertson go out there and get rocked again (which, lets be honest, is just as likely to happen as not), I'd pull him out of the rotation right now and get Hensley in there. Hensley has competitive fire to him, something this team could appreciated and draw from as a starter, while it can't be inspiring for a team to watch a guy like Robertson throw gopher balls.

I think the team is just what the record says, probably a little above average. After all, this is mostly the same team as last year

 

 

I disagree. Many (most) of the team's players are headed into their primes. We should expect their performance to improve.

 

I think they are in their prime, its just that they aren't that special. Tampa Bay has special players, we have decent players. I can't believe other people on the board can't see that. Its especially evident with our pitching. Its Johnson and everyone else. A team can't make the playoffs with one special pitcher, and perhaps one special infielder (Hanley) you need more than that, and frankly I'd love to hear someone make an argument that there is another "special" player on the team.

 

I would regard Ricky Nolasco in this "special" bracket you talk of based on the fact that his arsenal of pitches is "special". Striking out 16 in 1 game, including 9 in a row is "special". Of course he does have some bad days and last year his ERA was not what we wanted, however he is an excellent pitcher.

 

Who would you regard to be special on the Rays team? Longoria yes, Crawford, I would give you that. But who else? David Price should be in that category in a year or 2 (started this season really well) but not quite yet. They have a lot of decent players like Shields, Garza, Zobrist, Upton but they are not "special".

 

Did those guys win a division with both the Yankees & Red Sox in it, and make the World Series ? What is their record vs the Marlins the last 3 years ? That's what I mean by special. If any one argues they aren't better than the Marlins right now, they're just ignoring facts.

 

If the Marlins are to continue to rely primarily on the draft to collect talent, they just have to a better job scouting and drafting. They can't continue to miss on 1st round picks, and then trade special talent to the likes of Andrew Miller & Cameron Maybin. If you do, then you condemn your franchise to becoming like the LA Clippers - perinnial cellar dwellers like the Pirates & Orioles.

If the Marlins are to continue to rely primarily on the draft to collect talent, they just have to a better job scouting and drafting. They can't continue to miss on 1st round picks, and then trade special talent to the likes of Andrew Miller & Cameron Maybin. If you do, then you condemn your franchise to becoming like the LA Clippers - perinnial cellar dwellers like the Pirates & Orioles.

 

You really don't understand the financials of Miguel Cabrera with comments like this. They had to trade him when they did, and that's ignoring Willis. The criticism is, they should have bought out his contract for 5-7 years in 2005 when he was still cheap. It wasn't that given the situation (albeit yes, they created) they missed on the prospects. The trade was the right call. The result? That's a different story and we'll see if Maybin becomes our longterm CF and Miller a useful arm in some capacity. Judging baseball front offices is a PROCESS analysis just as important as it's a result one. Because hell, some GM's get lucky (Ken Williams, Ned Coletti) when they are just really bad at their jobs. I'd rather have a good GM that makes routine smart decisions, and we have that even if he misses on Bonifacios here and there. Way more good than bad.

 

And as for primarily relying on the draft to collect talent, maybe I can buy that if you want to follow the causation trail that Hanley is in essence Beckett (who we drafted) and Lowell (who traded minor leaguers we drafted for), but the front office guys hammer free agency and other trades to acquire the team.

 

1B - Gaby

LF - Coghlan

B - Carroll

SP - Johnson

SP - Volstad

RP - Wood

RP - Leroux

 

That's it on the current team.

I think the team is just what the record says, probably a little above average. After all, this is mostly the same team as last year

 

 

I disagree. Many (most) of the team's players are headed into their primes. We should expect their performance to improve.

 

I think they are in their prime, its just that they aren't that special. Tampa Bay has special players, we have decent players. I can't believe other people on the board can't see that. Its especially evident with our pitching. Its Johnson and everyone else. A team can't make the playoffs with one special pitcher, and perhaps one special infielder (Hanley) you need more than that, and frankly I'd love to hear someone make an argument that there is another "special" player on the team.

 

I would regard Ricky Nolasco in this "special" bracket you talk of based on the fact that his arsenal of pitches is "special". Striking out 16 in 1 game, including 9 in a row is "special". Of course he does have some bad days and last year his ERA was not what we wanted, however he is an excellent pitcher.

 

Who would you regard to be special on the Rays team? Longoria yes, Crawford, I would give you that. But who else? David Price should be in that category in a year or 2 (started this season really well) but not quite yet. They have a lot of decent players like Shields, Garza, Zobrist, Upton but they are not "special".

 

Did those guys win a division with both the Yankees & Red Sox in it, and make the World Series ? What is their record vs the Marlins the last 3 years ? That's what I mean by special. If any one argues they aren't better than the Marlins right now, they're just ignoring facts.

 

If the Marlins are to continue to rely primarily on the draft to collect talent, they just have to a better job scouting and drafting. They can't continue to miss on 1st round picks, and then trade special talent to the likes of Andrew Miller & Cameron Maybin. If you do, then you condemn your franchise to becoming like the LA Clippers - perinnial cellar dwellers like the Pirates & Orioles.

 

Absolutely the Rays are currently better than the Marlins, I don't deny that. They play extremely well as a team, however as I mentioned, they are not all special players, only a handful are.

We have the second worst BB/K in the league, only ahead of the Astros. We only have four players with average or better walk rate (Gaby, Hanley, Baker, Barden), and four with average or better BB/K (Replace Barden with Uggla). Josh Johnson has a better walk rate (7.7%) than 9 of our position players, and has more total walks than three of them (BC, Lamb, and Bonifacio has yet to draw a walk, though Boni only had 3 PA).

 

We have the 5th worst walk rate in all of baseball, and the Giants are "beating" us by 0.1% for fourth place.

 

Yeah, Cody, Coghlan, and likely Maybin should see their walk rates rise, and BC has to draw a walk EVENTUALLY, but right now it's fair to say our team is horrible in plate discipline.

 

 

And that is directly a product of Jim Presley's "All or none" approach as a hitting coach. Our team has had that kind of mindset since he joined the staff.

I've been saying this for years! IMO the team has until the middle of May until changes are made, much like 2003/

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

 

 

 

Ummm...relax? Check the standings lately?

I think we'll be within striking distance of the wild card and/or the NL East lead by the end of May. It is possible that we'll be struggling. If so, then we need to make changes. But I think threads like these are really pointless.

They'll fire Fredi Gonzalez.

 

God willing.

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

 

 

 

Ummm...relax? Check the standings lately?

 

Yes we are close to 4th and falling, and what I meant was if they fall 6 or 7 games into last place by the end of May. I think most understood what I meant, given the title of the thread.

Seriously, I would rather have a team that's doing okay now and then turning on the jets later than a team that's great now with ESPN doing their "Are the Marlins FOR REAL?!" talking points, and then dropping out silently at the end. This team has some work to do, but fortunately, everyone in the NL East in the same situation. There are points where they've looked extremely sharp, and times where it looked like everyone got hit in the crotch with a sledge hammer before the games started. The Phillies that hammered the Nats and Astros to start the season were very quiet until today's game against the Mets. The Mets were struggling to start, and now are at the top. The Nats in the past two weeks aren't being as much like the Nats we know and love. The only team that's just kinda' there is Atlanta, and they've had their moments.

 

Everyone in the NL East is still in it, and it's a matter of who wants to straighten up and fly right, and the Marlins easily have some of the best potential to do so. Of course, potential over results has been the problem with Marlins teams the past few years. But every one of the starters has had brilliant innings and horrid innings. We've had complete game and near complete game masterpieces followed by shellings. Hitting has a couple weak links, but if we can get Coughlin back up to snuff and Maybin up a couple notches, really, the only truly serious weaknesses are fielding and middle relief, and the piece of middle that REALLY hurt, Veras, is out of the picture. The middle relief lately has been okay (I'd hesitate to say "good," but I've seen much worse out of the Marlins), and really their big problem is sometimes they're already down large when it gets to them. I'm not a Pinto fan at all and I'd say he's been doing fine after a slow start. Fielding is a more frustrating deal, but it's one of those things that gets better as the season goes along, albeit not nearly as quickly as most would like.

 

We lost 7-1 to the Nats yesterday and are in position to win 7-1 tonight. That's the NL East right now, and we're in okay shape. 2.0 games out in May is no need for panic and I don't see any need for panic until at least mid-June. It's baseball. It's the biggest rollercoaster in sports, and the Marlins are the ones with the highest climbs, the biggest drops, and the most hurl-inducing corkscrews. If you have a weak stomach, buddy, did you back the wrong team.

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

 

 

 

Ummm...relax? Check the standings lately?

 

yep....4th place and falling, 3 wins and 7 losses in the last ten, and lost 4 of the last 5 series. See a pattern ?

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

 

 

 

Ummm...relax? Check the standings lately?

 

yep....4th place and falling, 3 wins and 7 losses in the last ten, and lost 4 of the last 5 series. See a pattern ?

I see a 0.06 sample size.

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

 

 

 

Ummm...relax? Check the standings lately?

 

yep....4th place and falling, 3 wins and 7 losses in the last ten, and lost 4 of the last 5 series. See a pattern ?

 

Yep. You continue to be an annoying troll who starts ridiculous threads.

It may happen sooner than that if they fall 6 or 7 games out of even 4th place. They now have to win the next two or lose their fourth series in a row. I don't believe that happened once last year. I could be wrong but it seemed that we were more consistant last year.

 

Do the guys look enthused at all ? I just don't see the chemistry I used to see in the clubhouse. The smiling, the joking around, the cutting up. They look dour and sullen most of the time. Even when losing these guys used to still have some fun out there. Has the pressure from Loria's preseason statement of "I expect to make the playoffs" hanging like a cloud over them ?

 

I guess no one here can really answer these questions but maybe others here can see if they observe the same things.

 

 

 

Ummm...relax? Check the standings lately?

 

yep....4th place and falling, 3 wins and 7 losses in the last ten, and lost 4 of the last 5 series. See a pattern ?

 

Yep. You continue to be an annoying troll who starts ridiculous threads.

 

Truth hurts ? Why is it trolling when you just state facts ? Just because I don't think that this team as its put together will be a winner ? I expected more this off-season and they didn't do anything. Now we are seeing the rotting fruits of their smugness.

 

IOW I'm pissed that I waited all winter long for Marlins baseball and now its looking like a long losing season.