40 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

What?

The length of my post he was referring to was about 70% of the length of your usual team-related ones.

54 minutes ago, Michael said:

Wasn't on the Spaces but did he specify stay as the manager or to simply stay in some capacity? Herald article mentioned a possible special assistant role.

They asked about potential replacements. He mentioned the Rays bench coach (because he wouldn’t rule out the Marlins trying to copy the Rays, no real sources on that), but then said he wouldn’t advocate for Don leaving because he’s a fan of Don’s. 

14 minutes ago, Erick said:

They asked about potential replacements. He mentioned the Rays bench coach (because he wouldn’t rule out the Marlins trying to copy the Rays, no real sources on that), but then said he wouldn’t advocate for Don leaving because he’s a fan of Don’s. 

probably only because Don is buddies with Rojas. Craig is such a stalker.

1 hour ago, Erick said:

They asked about potential replacements. He mentioned the Rays bench coach (because he wouldn’t rule out the Marlins trying to copy the Rays, no real sources on that), but then said he wouldn’t advocate for Don leaving because he’s a fan of Don’s. 

This is stupid.

Don's got to go.

ESPECIALLY if the idea is to keep all the pitchers (which may be the best idea TBH), because then they HAVE to deploy many of them (notably Rogers and Cabrera) on 4+ inning/2 times through the lineup/keep them healthy and around 130-140 IP and Don will just chug them out when struggling at 93 pitches into the 6th inning. We don't want this guy touching Eury if he does happen to debut next year. 

Ignoring the pure culture change as it seems the locker room is not great, the on-the-field strategy needs a radical upgrade with a pitching centric guy. Double and triple down on what you are good if nothing else.

ALSO - someone tell Bruce hiring a first time manager + former manager bench coach to help will be cheaper than Don as-is. Play to the audience. Save that money.

What's weird is that if the clubhouse culture is so toxic, the Marlins not sacking Mattingly when they have known this for a while shows a lack of a commitment to winning. 

That's a call that Sherman would have to sign off on, and well, its painfully obvious what matters most to him in order of importance:

 

1-50 - profits

51 winning

 

so ya.  

1 hour ago, MarlinsLou said:

This is stupid.

Don's got to go.

ESPECIALLY if the idea is to keep all the pitchers (which may be the best idea TBH), because then they HAVE to deploy many of them (notably Rogers and Cabrera) on 4+ inning/2 times through the lineup/keep them healthy and around 130-140 IP.

I cannot wait for baseball to cycle out of this fucking mindset.  

Pitch counts are fine and dandy, but the real problem is we have guys that just go max effort from pitch 1 - pitch 90 and then they call it a day.  

Be that in inning 3 or inning 7, who cares.

I cannot wait until the emphasis returns on innings, being efficient and getting through a lineup for a 3rd time.  

With all the enhances to medicals, you'd think we would be able to figure this out that max effort 100% of the time equates to more injury.  

55 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

I cannot wait for baseball to cycle out of this fucking mindset.  

Pitch counts are fine and dandy, but the real problem is we have guys that just go max effort from pitch 1 - pitch 90 and then they call it a day.  

Be that in inning 3 or inning 7, who cares.

I cannot wait until the emphasis returns on innings, being efficient and getting through a lineup for a 3rd time.  

With all the enhances to medicals, you'd think we would be able to figure this out that max effort 100% of the time equates to more injury.  

Basically what Sandy does. I don't think he starts maxing out until the 6th or 7th inning.

13 minutes ago, Michael said:

Basically what Sandy does. I don't think he starts maxing out until the 6th or 7th inning.

Don has also been more willing than a lot of other managers to let him keep pitching past 90 pitches unlike a lot of managers who have guys trying to do the same and they still yank them out.  See ol' Cash there in Tampa. I've seen him pull McClanahan when he's absolutely cruising with 80 pitches or so through 6.  Absolutely no reason to pull him but he's done it multiple times this season.  My buddy who's a huge Rays fan absolutely hates Cash for that shit.  I would too. 

41 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

I cannot wait for baseball to cycle out of this fucking mindset.  

Pitch counts are fine and dandy, but the real problem is we have guys that just go max effort from pitch 1 - pitch 90 and then they call it a day.  

Be that in inning 3 or inning 7, who cares.

I cannot wait until the emphasis returns on innings, being efficient and getting through a lineup for a 3rd time.  

With all the enhances to medicals, you'd think we would be able to figure this out that max effort 100% of the time equates to more injury.  

That's never going to happen. Sandy is a unicorn. Teams are going to have guys throw more sliders/curves to get guys out/higher whiff rates and just churn them. Everyone is throwing 95 in AAA these days among call up relievers so clubs have confidence some reinforcements are always coming so if they get hurt, oh well. Everyone has the gas in the arms to bring up someone - like Yacabonis who the Marlins can't even find room for but moved to a playoff team. To me, that's how arms get hurt - it's the emphasis on continued offspeed pitches on usage. It's not the amount of pitches, it's the type of pitch being thrown. Frankly, the Marlins are REALLY good at identifying what pitch to throw also, which is very often not a fastball. Luzardo is turning into an ace and they raised Garrett from the dead.

So what to do? Throw less sliders/curves. That'll keep guys healthier. You can do this with your theory here for sure - let's be efficient, Maddox-esque, and locate and use fastballs more. That's great if a guy can do that (few and far between these days as modern pitches throw MUCH harder, etc. and Jamie Moyer probably isn't surviving these days, etc.). I mean sign me up if you can find four 180+ IP monsters that can do this. I'm a big fan of pitchability, I just think it's hard to find right now. I don't even think Pablo fits this bill TBH even if he's really good.

But I'd argue just to quib on that 90 pitches reference above...... why not 60-75 pitches then and max out with those? That should get you through 4-5 innings and frankly, multiply that by 32 appearances and that's a lot of innings. 130+. And that's a lot less sliders versus expecting a guy to throw 160-180 IP which is a normal SP this day.  I think that would keep guys healthier to have reasonable expectations of 2+ times through the lineup and call it a day.

I think we'd all agree if a SP gets 180 innings and a RP 60 innings those are pretty healthy totals. That's 2 roster spots obviously. As a real world example, why not throw Rogers and Cabrera 4+ innings each next year as the 5th SP, and literally expect to use no relievers unless you really need one in the 9th. Just let them rip for 4+ each around 60-75 pitches. They each get 130+ innings (which is what Rogers did in 2021 BTW) and that's more than a 180 IP SP and 60 IP RP you'd have with those roster spots, while maximizing the guys arms by not over stressing them at all. Everyone is fresh for the playoffs if you make it. This is especially the case for Cabrera who probably shouldn't be throwing more than that next year anyways. I always hate "shutting down arms" close to the end of the year. Teams are dumb - they need to finesse those innings and keep the guys going the full year. This helps accomplish that and if one of them takes off, great scale them up next year and reassess.

I think this is the future - many many many multi innings pitchers on set schedules. Teams have "1 time through" and "2 times through" guys and pitchers come at you in waves. What the Rays are doing is just the beginning basically.

Frankly, here's a 2024 hypothetical:

Sandy (200)
Luzardo + Eury (260, Eury won't have big innings built up yet. He's really young)
Pablo + Eder (280+ - Pablo gets some more latitude here with innings)
Rogers + Cabrera (260)
Garrett + Meyer (260)

You need 200 RP innings max here over 4 roster spots - easy. Half of this is likely garbage time so you can probably spend on a CLOSER that everyone wants. And you are injury proof in the rotation as you can always stretch guys out and tweak this on the fly as everyone is used to throwing 60-75 innings on schedule and ticking that up to 90+ pitches for two guys is not a big deal. This puts your best 13 arms in the big leagues which I am a BIG advocate on. Let them all pitch and the roles will develop themselves once performance kicks in.

Basically, why throw the Pops and Okerts if you can just steamroll teams like this with better pitchers over 3-5 inning bursts? That's what I'm saying. Let's kill carrying 8 relievers and carry 8-9 STARTERS so you're never screwed in the rotation. Carry more better pitchers at all times and stop thinking historical SP and innings to innings RP baseball where using 4 RP a day kills your pen for tomorrow. I think this keeps everyone healthier for innings/less tress/less offspeed pitches over 160 IP, but I could be wrong.

Food for thought.
 

 

2 minutes ago, hovertical said:

Don has also been more willing than a lot of other managers to let him keep pitching past 90 pitches unlike a lot of managers who have guys trying to do the same and they still yank them out.  See ol' Cash there in Tampa. I've seen him pull McClanahan when he's absolutely cruising with 80 pitches or so through 6.  Absolutely no reason to pull him but he's done it multiple times this season.  My buddy who's a huge Rays fan absolutely hates Cash for that shit.  I would too. 

The Rays are right here. These guys can't jump from 125 innings to 175 regular season + playoffs at 25 years old with what they are throwing. That's how you get guys hurt. Also to note, if the Rays are up 4-5 runs after said 6th inning because McClanahan has pitched a shutout, they absolutely should remove him to preserve innings when they are needed more. Their pen can protect that lead. He isn't needed so save him for more important outings. This is situational however, but I suspect this may have been some of the pulls versus a tied 2-2 game sort of thing.

16 hours ago, Erick said:

Was listening to Twitter Spaces tonight, and Craig Mish said:

-Don’s only had 1 good season

-The team can’t hit (shouldn’t this be Don’s specialty?)

-The team has had issues in the clubhouse all year

With that said, Mish would like to see Mattingly stay because he’s a huge fan.

Lol, there’s no pressure on these losers in this market. 

In my eyes, it's been pretty clear Don hasn't had the clubhouse for most of the season.  He's a lame duck manager, and is acting like one - he very evidently doesn't care what happens on a given day/game (or overall), and it's translating to the players - there's been no drive to do better or win for 95% of the season.

 

Why he's still in charge of the team is beyond me.

In the past, I've supported the idea of keeping Don in a lesser role, as he does seem to be a good "player's guy", but I now feel he'd be a wet blanket over everything, and a conflicting voice in the clubhouse to whatever new voice is brought in.  Keep Mel and show the rest of the coaching staff and trainers the door.

2 hours ago, hovertical said:

Don has also been more willing than a lot of other managers to let him keep pitching past 90 pitches unlike a lot of managers who have guys trying to do the same and they still yank them out.  See ol' Cash there in Tampa. I've seen him pull McClanahan when he's absolutely cruising with 80 pitches or so through 6.  Absolutely no reason to pull him but he's done it multiple times this season.  My buddy who's a huge Rays fan absolutely hates Cash for that shit.  I would too. 

That is not a Cash decision.  They have their analysis and it overrules anything the eyes might see always.

Cash is just pushing the buttons and executing the game plan.  

Its how they do business, people seem to love that shit, but I feel its tragically flawed because it will never take into account the here and now.  

The best run system is one that combines both.  The Rays rely on advanced analytical data for 95% of their decisions.

If you hate how Cash manages then you hate the system the Rays have.

3 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

The Rays are right here. These guys can't jump from 125 innings to 175 regular season + playoffs at 25 years old with what they are throwing. That's how you get guys hurt. Also to note, if the Rays are up 4-5 runs after said 6th inning because McClanahan has pitched a shutout, they absolutely should remove him to preserve innings when they are needed more. Their pen can protect that lead. He isn't needed so save him for more important outings. This is situational however, but I suspect this may have been some of the pulls versus a tied 2-2 game sort of thing.

but they aren't up 4-5 runs in those games. Cash will do it if they have a 1 run lead, tied, or down by a run too- that's what pisses my friend off so much.  He'll just pull him at around 80-85 pitches regardless of score.  Also, injury rates have not declined by limiting pitch counts (which does kinda tie into inning limits as well).  They just had an article on that fairly recently on ESPN that limiting innings, pitches, etc. has had no impact in lessening they type of, or length of recovery for pitching injuries.  I'm not saying let a guy pitch like Nolan Ryan and throw 150 pitches a game but you're only training their arms to go shorter and shorter by continually pulling guys out of the game early if they've had few stressful innings overall.

48 minutes ago, hovertical said:

but they aren't up 4-5 runs in those games. Cash will do it if they have a 1 run lead, tied, or down by a run too- that's what pisses my friend off so much.  He'll just pull him at around 80-85 pitches regardless of score.  Also, injury rates have not declined by limiting pitch counts (which does kinda tie into inning limits as well).  They just had an article on that fairly recently on ESPN that limiting innings, pitches, etc. has had no impact in lessening they type of, or length of recovery for pitching injuries.  I'm not saying let a guy pitch like Nolan Ryan and throw 150 pitches a game but you're only training their arms to go shorter and shorter by continually pulling guys out of the game early if they've had few stressful innings overall.

It was a hypothetical for some occurences but sure.

Regardless - they are still right. I agree inning stress means a lot - like Luzardo is killing people so he can keep going if he keeps this up. It should be a soft line. But maybe McClanahan has thrown one too many slider? They need him for the postseason for sure so they have to build him up and protect him short and longterm. He is insanely valuable. Plus, their bullpen is great so they can afford to do this.

I find it funny a RAYS fans complains about their front office also. 25 other teams want to be them. They are the pinnacle of what one can hope for. Needs some perspective. Tune in tomorrow to see Joey Wendle batting 2nd against a lefty.

38 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

It was a hypothetical for some occurences but sure.

Regardless - they are still right. I agree inning stress means a lot - like Luzardo is killing people so he can keep going if he keeps this up. It should be a soft line. But maybe McClanahan has thrown one too many slider? They need him for the postseason for sure so they have to build him up and protect him short and longterm. He is insanely valuable. Plus, their bullpen is great so they can afford to do this.

I find it funny a RAYS fans complains about their front office also. 25 other teams want to be them. They are the pinnacle of what one can hope for. Needs some perspective. Tune in tomorrow to see Joey Wendle batting 2nd against a lefty.

He doesn't complain about their front office - he does complain about Cash though but if you're saying Cash doesn't make any calls on his own and is always told entirely what to do by the front office, then, i guess he hates the front office?  You can argue team philosophy I guess but it's still Cash making the calls and he's cut back pitch counts even more judging by what my friend has seen this year from the Rays.  In his words "they're trying to get too cute" by thinking they're smarter than every other team.  Eventually everyone catches up with what you're doing no matter how novel it is because once everyone else emulates it evens out - perhaps they've reached that point or perhaps they've just had some bad luck this year with the injuries they've had.  Regardless, they haven't been nearly as successful this year as in the past in particular with their bullpen arms they've been running out there which has cost them in games Cash has pulled Shane early with only a 1 run lead or tie game.  I don't watch many Rays games overall but he watches most of them and he's been a baseball fan (was a Cubs fan prior to Tampa getting a team) for 30+ years so I tend to believe him when he tells me things he sees that seem like stupid nonsensical moves.

 

14 hours ago, hovertical said:

He doesn't complain about their front office - he does complain about Cash though but if you're saying Cash doesn't make any calls on his own and is always told entirely what to do by the front office, then, i guess he hates the front office?  You can argue team philosophy I guess but it's still Cash making the calls and he's cut back pitch counts even more judging by what my friend has seen this year from the Rays.  In his words "they're trying to get too cute" by thinking they're smarter than every other team.  Eventually everyone catches up with what you're doing no matter how novel it is because once everyone else emulates it evens out - perhaps they've reached that point or perhaps they've just had some bad luck this year with the injuries they've had.  Regardless, they haven't been nearly as successful this year as in the past in particular with their bullpen arms they've been running out there which has cost them in games Cash has pulled Shane early with only a 1 run lead or tie game.  I don't watch many Rays games overall but he watches most of them and he's been a baseball fan (was a Cubs fan prior to Tampa getting a team) for 30+ years so I tend to believe him when he tells me things he sees that seem like stupid nonsensical moves.

 

You can emulate what a group's collective intelligence creates, but you can't emulate the intelligence. A good FO may lose their advantage temporarily, but if the other FOs had to copy them to beat them, then that good FO will likely surpass them again in the future when they come up with the next novel idea.

At this point, I don't think the Rays are lucky. It's just a better group of people than, say, the Marlins.

Edited August 9, 20224 yr by Entendu

1 hour ago, Entendu said:

 

At this point, I don't think the Rays are lucky. It's just a better group of people than, say, the Marlins.

Well that's not saying much - nor am I claiming the Rays FO sucks (nor was he for that matter).  I was simply relaying that Cash likes to pull out Shane with a low pitch count even when the game is tied or they're only up by 1 and it drives my friend insane as their pen has not performed like a typical Rays pen has performed in the past and the opposing team has come back to tie/win the game when the reliever comes in. 

The whole innings limiting and pitch count stuff that nearly all teams employ has done little to stem the flow of moderate to serious injuries in comparison to years past.  It sounds good in theory but the results aren't really there to support it.

50 minutes ago, hovertical said:

The whole innings limiting and pitch count stuff that nearly all teams employ has done little to stem the flow of moderate to serious injuries in comparison to years past.  It sounds good in theory but the results aren't really there to support it.

Yeah - all comes down to max effort all the time like was stated earlier. Guys got injured less back in the day because they worked themselves up to being able to go 9 or even 10+ innings.

Sandy nowadays. He knows he can "easily" sit at 98 and does so. Then later in the game ramps it up to 100, 101.

I think, or at least I hope, that the pitch clock is going to help a lot of pitchers be more efficient next year and we're going to see a lot more balls in play. Hopefully.

45 minutes ago, hovertical said:

Well that's not saying much - nor am I claiming the Rays FO sucks (nor was he for that matter).  I was simply relaying that Cash likes to pull out Shane with a low pitch count even when the game is tied or they're only up by 1 and it drives my friend insane as their pen has not performed like a typical Rays pen has performed in the past and the opposing team has come back to tie/win the game when the reliever comes in. 

The whole innings limiting and pitch count stuff that nearly all teams employ has done little to stem the flow of moderate to serious injuries in comparison to years past.  It sounds good in theory but the results aren't really there to support it.

It's the slider usage to me. And here's a fun fact.

Okert - 2nd overall
Scott - 4
Head - 15
Bass - 19

That's highest volume of sliders thrown by pitchers this year. Okert is throwing sliders 70% of the time which is bananas. Marlins are definitely a theme here of having pitchers use their best pitch over and over again. Braxton and E. Hernandez are very high for SP to note here. Braxton is throwing sliders 34% of the time... and his curve 10%. This is 44% of tougher pitches to throw. Makes sense with a lower FB velocity, but this goes to the whole "who is getting hurt and how" question. This is not a great profile to pitch 180-200 innings.

Sandy (35th most percentage wise)/Pablo (8th most percentage wise)/Rogers(29th most percentage wise) are more changeup oriented. Cabrera doesn't have the pitches yet but will be very high on changeups if his arsenal usage continues. He is in the 30s for his changeup.

And then, Luzardo has thrown 9th most curveballs by percentage (35%).

Basically, Garrett and Luzardo are always high stress. It's the pitches. Sandy/Pablo/Rogers not so much. Cabrera is trending in the right direction also to not be so high stress. Fingers crossed with him.

So let's keep them healthy and make Garrett/Luzardo more of 4-5 IP guys absent a real crushing outing. Those quantities of sliders/curveballs aren't necessarily a red flag over 140-150 innings versus trying to get more out of them. Cabrera also because he isn't built up health wise and we'll see.

Sandy and Pablo you can let rip. Rogers is in a good position to succeed if he performs better.

3 minutes ago, Michael said:

Yeah - all comes down to max effort all the time like was stated earlier. Guys got injured less back in the day because they worked themselves up to being able to go 9 or even 10+ innings.

Sandy nowadays. He knows he can "easily" sit at 98 and does so. Then later in the game ramps it up to 100, 101.

I think, or at least I hope, that the pitch clock is going to help a lot of pitchers be more efficient next year and we're going to see a lot more balls in play. Hopefully.

See above - guys 20 years ago were throwing much much less sliders/curves. It's not just building up, it's pitch type for sure. Plus efficiency where every reliever has good traits now and that wasn't a thing 20 years ago. Frankly, I think we are all right here and it's a little bit of everything, but the slider/curveball usage rights are getting out of control and this seems like the biggest culture change in baseball. I can buy guys are babied a little too much, but I don't think it's egregious.

Also I hope your theory of the pitch clock works. Frankly, I want to kill half inning TV commercials and had on-air ads/jerseys (fuck purity). Let's move shit along. Let's have a post 3rd inning and 7th inning stretch and play through is what I am saying. Get to the mound and throw it. No batting glove adjustments every pitch even when its a ball.

16 minutes ago, Michael said:

Yeah - all comes down to max effort all the time like was stated earlier. Guys got injured less back in the day because they worked themselves up to being able to go 9 or even 10+ innings.

Sandy nowadays. He knows he can "easily" sit at 98 and does so. Then later in the game ramps it up to 100, 101.

I think, or at least I hope, that the pitch clock is going to help a lot of pitchers be more efficient next year and we're going to see a lot more balls in play. Hopefully.

Pitch clock plus elimination of extreme shifts should bring back some of the fun element of the game alone.

27 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

See above - guys 20 years ago were throwing much much less sliders/curves. It's not just building up, it's pitch type for sure. Plus efficiency where every reliever has good traits now and that wasn't a thing 20 years ago. Frankly, I think we are all right here and it's a little bit of everything, but the slider/curveball usage rights are getting out of control and this seems like the biggest culture change in baseball. I can buy guys are babied a little too much, but I don't think it's egregious.

Also I hope your theory of the pitch clock works. Frankly, I want to kill half inning TV commercials and had on-air ads/jerseys (fuck purity). Let's move shit along. Let's have a post 3rd inning and 7th inning stretch and play through is what I am saying. Get to the mound and throw it. No batting glove adjustments every pitch even when its a ball.

Yeah I'll agree with that as well. Too many breaking pitches, and also throwing those at max effort every time. All that elbow strain. 😞

My idea with the pitch clock, and this has been said by a few baseball people as well, is that pitchers won't have that "rest" time between pitches like they do now and so they won't be able to go max effort every single pitch, leading to potentially less velocity and movement which should lead to more hittable pitches. Maybe.

We'll see! I could be totally wrong. Haha.

2 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

It's the slider usage to me. And here's a fun fact.

Okert - 2nd overall
Scott - 4
Head - 15
Bass - 19

That's highest volume of sliders thrown by pitchers this year. Okert is throwing sliders 70% of the time which is bananas. Marlins are definitely a theme here of having pitchers use their best pitch over and over again. Braxton and E. Hernandez are very high for SP to note here. Braxton is throwing sliders 34% of the time... and his curve 10%. This is 44% of tougher pitches to throw. Makes sense with a lower FB velocity, but this goes to the whole "who is getting hurt and how" question. This is not a great profile to pitch 180-200 innings.

Sandy (35th most percentage wise)/Pablo (8th most percentage wise)/Rogers(29th most percentage wise) are more changeup oriented. Cabrera doesn't have the pitches yet but will be very high on changeups if his arsenal usage continues. He is in the 30s for his changeup.

And then, Luzardo has thrown 9th most curveballs by percentage (35%).

Basically, Garrett and Luzardo are always high stress. It's the pitches. Sandy/Pablo/Rogers not so much. Cabrera is trending in the right direction also to not be so high stress. Fingers crossed with him.

So let's keep them healthy and make Garrett/Luzardo more of 4-5 IP guys absent a real crushing outing. Those quantities of sliders/curveballs aren't necessarily a red flag over 140-150 innings versus trying to get more out of them. Cabrera also because he isn't built up health wise and we'll see.

Sandy and Pablo you can let rip. Rogers is in a good position to succeed if he performs better.

There is a lot of truth to this.

Pitching used to be based on the fastball.  Its not anymore its all about advanced metrics and with that is spin rates et al.  

So when you had guys going 8/9 regularly it was because they were using their fastball as their primary pitch.  A properly placed fastball is still the most effective pitch in baseball, I feel. 

The other issue is that pitchers are throwing curves/sliders et al at a younger age when their bodies arent actually mature enough for that.  But thats part of a larger wider issue.  

 

from what I read sliders are definitely the most stress on your arm.

and this study backs that 

https://osf.io/jxu86/download/?format=pdf#:~:text=Every subject threw fastballs and,51.3 ± 15.5 N·m.

tl,dr:

sliders are far far far and away the pitch that puts the most stress on an arm and shoulder.

curveballs it appears is second, but this is also due to a higher usage rate overall. 

 

Das analysis:

 

A pitcher that is a fastball/change (any type of those pitches) 70% of the time give or take with a 30% curveball (or other non slider breaking pitch) should be able to maintain a long and effective career.  Granted this assumes good pitching mechanics to reduce stress on arms.   So I'll amend my statement yesterday and say that at some point we are going to get away from (as an industry) such a reliance on the slider because its such an awful pitch for the long term health of pitchers, and we are going to return (hopefully at a youth level first) a mentality of building upon fastball/changeup and not throwing breaking pitches until you are at least 15 (and maybe older, I need to do more research on maturity of arms in young men).

 

 

2 hours ago, MarlinsLou said:

See above - guys 20 years ago were throwing much much less sliders/curves. It's not just building up, it's pitch type for sure. Plus efficiency where every reliever has good traits now and that wasn't a thing 20 years ago. Frankly, I think we are all right here and it's a little bit of everything, but the slider/curveball usage rights are getting out of control and this seems like the biggest culture change in baseball. I can buy guys are babied a little too much, but I don't think it's egregious.

Also I hope your theory of the pitch clock works. Frankly, I want to kill half inning TV commercials and had on-air ads/jerseys (fuck purity). Let's move shit along. Let's have a post 3rd inning and 7th inning stretch and play through is what I am saying. Get to the mound and throw it. No batting glove adjustments every pitch even when its a ball.

They were not throwing sliders really at all.  Curves were thrown a lot, just at a rate of 15-25% generally speaking when mixed in with other pitches.

The pitch clock has done wonders in the minors.  The game flows better and there is less dead time in between pitches.  If you notice players called up, the game has flowed a lot better when they are on the mound and in the box.  

2 hours ago, Michael said:

Yeah I'll agree with that as well. Too many breaking pitches, and also throwing those at max effort every time. All that elbow strain. 😞

My idea with the pitch clock, and this has been said by a few baseball people as well, is that pitchers won't have that "rest" time between pitches like they do now and so they won't be able to go max effort every single pitch, leading to potentially less velocity and movement which should lead to more hittable pitches. Maybe.

We'll see! I could be totally wrong. Haha.

That's interesting, but we'll see. But then, this swings back to what I'm saying - the normal SP might get the hook after 2 times through/4+ innings of work around pitch 60-75 which will keep everyone healthier. So does the timing matter when these guys know they are getting pulled in 4 and don't have to save anything at all? I think they will adapt pretty quickly here to any pitch clocks/moving game faster. The batting gloves are magically going to start fitting tighter also.

Frankly, I'm really convinced they are going to break Luzardo and Garrett if they try throwing them 180 innings. It may work a year or two, but they are going to break down throwing likely 40% sliders/curves. For perspective, Sandy is doing 78% fastball/changeup/sinkers and 22% sliders. He's the unicorn, but if you find those guys great. Honestly, they are doing pretty good here as Pablo/Rogers/Cabrera don't appear to be on a huge pitch mix path to destruction. They are doing what they need to do with Luzardo and Garret to extract value and that's fine and the performance speaks for itself. I just hope they temper expectations and slot them in for 130-150 innings next year and "McClanahan" their workload a bit. This also may quickly explain why Pablo is a "need" next year as after Sandy, is Rogers good? Cabrera will have a 120+ IP cap more than likely? Luzardo and Garrett are high risk arms and likely cap out 150 at absolute most? With no Meyer, Hernandez has been terrible, Poteet and Neiderts are unknowns, and Eury/Sixto/Eder/Fulton likely not premier options for next year.... SP doesn't have much to trade "today" even if "soon" there may be a massive surplus. Just saying. I want them to get a CF more than anything, but they have to trade from a real surplus.