Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 except for the fact that there is literally NO STARTING PITCHING on the market. Well that's not factual. I literally don't think you know what the definition of literally is. Maybe there isn't game-changing starting pitching on the market, but there are starting pitchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Texan Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Well ok, I should really specify, there are no starters that would be worth signing that would be considered good options for 1-3 in the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Well ok, I should really specify, there are no starters that would be worth signing that would be considered good options for 1-3 in the rotation. That's better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Texan Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Sad realty is this: Marlins were fucked in 2017 with lack of pitching depth and lack of a true #2 starter. The new reality is they are really fucked now, as they dont have a #1 or #2 starter now. And that isnt changing, unless they move one of: Stanton or Yelich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canada-marlin24 Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 If Chen can do what he's done in the past, he is a #2. I agree. He was not good this year but he was also very frustrating. Many games where he was cruising and then would get blasted in one inning. Too many 2 out runs and poorly times home runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 If Chen can do what he's done in the past, he is a #2. Yes and I also think some underrate Conley's potential Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverBullet Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 One way or another Chen Conley and Koehler are locks. Two spots needed to be filled and depth cannot be taken for granted. That's where we are today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valid Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yes and I also think some underrate Conley's potential Yeah. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that he could be a low-end No. 2 or at least a really good No. 3. He just needs to get those walks down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dim Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yes and I also think some underrate Conley's potential I love Conley. But based on everything I saw in his minor league and major league progression, his potential is as a #3 starter. He'll never be a #1/2 guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 I love Conley. But based on everything I saw in his minor league and major league progression, his potential is as a #3 starter. He'll never be a #1/2 guy. Fair enough, but yesterday someone here said the fish only have 4s and 5s and that's not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dim Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Conley's numbers this season were on par with a low end #3. Obviously the inning count isn't what it should be, but he's one of the few consistent pitchers we had. In 12 of his 25 starts, Conley went 5 innings+ and allowed 2 or less ER. The biggest reason why he's still likely a #4 rather and than a full fledged #3 is the pitch count issue. Far too often his starts go under 5 IP and create stress on the bullpen. I love the consistency with his stuff, but the ability to work fast is an issue. 133 IP when working just about the full season isn't close to good enough. But if I'm not going to judge him super critically, Conley is one of the biggest reasons the Marlins are around .500 this year. The rotation was a mess with Jose, and after Chen fell apart there were huge problems that would ruin most teams. Conley being a consistently above average pitcher all year helped provide some stability to the rotation that we needed. I'm still on board with trading Koehler. He's the definition of consistently inconsistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 I'm still on board with trading Koehler. He's the definition of consistently inconsistent. He is a solid enough #5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dim Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 He is a solid enough #5 I don't think that's good enough. Starting pitching in the National League East especially is so good that having pitchers like Koehler in the rotation long term has been a liability. Sure he's been an acceptable #5 (incredibly given his HR and walk totals) but I think it's time for the front office to start to strive for more than just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 I don't think that's good enough. Starting pitching in the National League East especially is so good that having pitchers like Koehler in the rotation long term has been a liability. Sure he's been an acceptable #5 (incredibly given his HR and walk totals) but I think it's time for the front office to start to strive for more than just that. How many teams have a better #5 pitcher? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schnellders Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Koehler isn't the issue. I'll happily take his 180 innings of 4 ERA ball as a #5 given our current predicament. Right now he's our #3 and that needs to change but he is dependable at the back end of the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Koehler isn't the issue. I'll happily take his 180 innings of 4 ERA ball as a #5 given our current predicament. Right now he's our #3 and that needs to change but he is dependable at the back end of the rotation. Right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dim Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 How many teams have a better #5 pitcher? Astros (Brad Peacock) Blue Jays (Francisco Liriano) Brewers (Matt Garza) Cardinals (Jaime Garcia) Cubs (Jason Hammel) Dodgers (Julio Urias) Indians (Carlos Carrasco/Danny Salazar) Mariners (Ariel Miranda) Mets (Steve Matz) Nationals (Joe Ross) Phillies (Alec Asher/look at miilb stats) Rays (Alex Cobb/this year notwithstanding) Red Sox (Eduardo Rodriguez) Reds (Tim Adelman) Royals (Jason Vargas/injured recently) Tigers (Daniel Norris) White Sox (Miguel Gonzalez) On this list, I'd say there are 11 guaranteed better #5 starters than Koehler (Peacock, Liriano, Garcia, Hammel, Urias, Carrasco, Matz, Ross, Cobb, Rodriguez, Norris). The others are open for some discussion. I'll say the fact he's been in the rotation for over three years works in Koehler's favor. He is valuable and an acceptable #5. I do however think we could find better and that he is one of the few pieces we have that should be used as trade bait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 On this list, I'd say there are 11 guaranteed better #5 starters than Koehler (Peacock, Liriano, Garcia, Hammel, Urias, Carrasco, Matz, Ross, Cobb, Rodriguez, Norris). The others are open for some discussion. Assuming you're right about 11 (don't have time to research), that still would mean 18 other teams have worse #5's. hardly seems to be one of the team's issues. Many other things to worry about instead. Problem is TK isn't being used as a #5, we need more arms so he's a #5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dim Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 I agree with that assessment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollythewog Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yes and I also think some underrate Conley's potential if he doesn't get his velo back to 93/94 he'll be a left handed TK at best, unfortunately Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 if he doesn't get his velo back to 93/94 he'll be a left handed TK at best, unfortunately Can't debate that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pollythewog Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 his velo chart looks the opposite of promising http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=14457&position=P&pitch=FA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valid Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 his velo chart looks the opposite of promising http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=14457&position=P&pitch=FA Here's what I'm wondering: was the finger bothering him enough before hitting the DL to affect this velocity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valid Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Koehler has a lifetime 4.11 ERA, 4.32 FIP, allows less than a hit per inning, induces a decent amount of ground balls and eats innings. It would be nice if he could get the walks down, but otherwise, he is just fine for a No. 5 starter. Perfect, actually. As crazy as it sounds, TK has actually become underappreciated around these parts, and it's due to the fact that--as many have already stated--he is being asked to do more than he is capable of. If we miss out on the playoffs next year, it won't be because Koehler is our No. 5. It will be because he's our No. 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iowa Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Anyone think Jamie Garcia, Gio Gonzalez or Jason Hammell has their club options declined? Wow that FA SP class is brutal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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