Jeter's Payroll Trimming Plan? Trade Stanton, Gordon, and Prado

[SilverBullet]

how do you propose getting pitching?  That's the entire point.  

 

Fyi you will never get an answer to this question. He rants and rants but refuses to answer when someone actually asks him a logical question. 

 

 

[fish20]

You completely tear down the lineup core and other miscellaneous pitching assets to acquire pitching prospects who may or may not work out who likely won't be ready to be evaluated until 2019-2020. Spinning the roulette wheel without knowing until a year or two later at the earliest whether you've won or lost it all. Woohoo! Seems like a great idea to me. 

 

that's a terrible and glass completely empty way of describing a rebuild.  Is that what the Cubs, Astros, Yankees, White Sox, etc. did?

 

 

[SixYearItch]

No, none of the teams you mentioned did that. I don't recall any of the teams you mentioned trading a Gordon, Stanton, Ozuna, Yelich, Bour, Realmuto type core, all all-star or borderline all-star players, all in their 20's, for prospects.

 

 

[FutureGM]

I'm thankful we didn't end up landing Kenley Jansen for that insane contract offer, if nothing else. Or imagine if they had managed back in 2012 to get Albert Pujols, and they were stuck with his albatross of a contract. The Angels still have to pay him another $100+ million to be a terrible player for the next four years.

 

Those FA pitchers are the consequences of not keeping the farm system stocked. You always have to pay to get FA talent. Most of the time you won't get the value back.

 

 

[fish20]

No, none of the teams you mentioned did that. I don't recall any of the teams you mentioned trading a Gordon, Stanton, Ozuna, Yelich, Bour, Realmuto type core, all all-star or borderline all-star players, all in their 20's, for prospects.

 

Because they didnt have that talent.  We will never win with this core because Gordon, Stanton, and soon Ozuna will not be values and will be getting too much relative to their production and relative to our overall payroll.  Having those guys at the start of a rebuild is an even better reason to do it because we can get cheap young cost controlled talent for each of those guys and rebuild faster than a team like the astros did.

 

And the White Sox traded Sale and Eaton, among others.  The teams that didnt have guys like that, the Cubs and Astros, had years upon years of rebuilding before they were able to turn the corner because they didnt have trade pieces like that.

 

 

[Rydawg]

The more I read this thread title the angrier I get.  Trading Stanton is just the easiest and laziest route to lowering payroll.  Their first priority should be to get rid of Prado, Ziegler, Chen, Tazawa, and Gordon.  They need to think outside of the box and get creative.  Keep giving up international bonus money, include some of our prospects or trade our compensatory draft picks but just do whatever it takes. Also, Volquez $13 million will be of the books after 18' which well help a lot next off season.

 

After you've exhausted every other avenue, then and only then should you talk about trading Stanton. If you find a way to trade those five guys you will be able to keep this core together and maybe even add some pitching. 

 

If only Mike Hill hadn't signed the likes of Ziegler, Tazawa (Super bullpen my ass) Chen and Volquez.  If only he wouldn't have overpaid for Prado because of the sentiment over Jose's death.  Of course, Mike Hill will be leading the way on trading Giancarlo. What could possibly go wrong? 

 

Loria the sequel

 

Venting over... LOL

 

 

[SilverBullet]

The more I read this thread title the angrier I get.  Trading Stanton is just the easiest and laziest route to lowering payroll.  Their first priority should be to get rid of Prado, Ziegler, Chen, Tazawa, and Gordon.  They need to think outside of the box and get creative.  Keep giving up international bonus money, include some of our prospects or trade our compensatory draft picks but just do whatever it takes. Also, Volquez $13 million will be of the books after 18' which well help a lot next off season.

 

After you've exhausted every other avenue, then and only then should you talk about trading Stanton. If you find a way to trade those five guys you will be able to keep this core together and maybe even add some pitching. 

 

If only Mike Hill hadn't signed the likes of Ziegler, Tazawa (Super bullpen my ass) Chen and Volquez.  If only he wouldn't have overpaid for Prado because of the sentiment over Jose's death.  Of course, Mike Hill will be leading the way on trading Giancarlo. What could possibly go wrong? 

 

Loria the sequel

 

Venting over... LOL

 

Prado's contract was already in negotiations long before Jose's death. Prado just didn't agree to it until after the accident but the deal was already in place. I highly doubt the Marlins suddenly upped the money for Prado just because of Jose. 

 

 

[Admin]

Unloading all the bad deals only sounds like a great plan but you need another team to think so too and good luck with that. They don't have enough incentives in the system to drop contracts like Chen's unless they start tossing in an Ozuna for free.

 

 

[Exasperated]

Cleaning up the mess left by previous ownership is part of changing the way the team is run. 

 

Then why is Mike Hill still around ? His farm system was the worst in MLB for the last 4 years, and if anything is worse over that time. On top of signing really bad contracts with several players that are putting the team in a particularly bad financial state.

 

I just don't get the Hill thing....Jeter needs to explain that one. I am just about to end a 25 year fandom of the franchise if I don't get an answer to that one soon. I can't take it anymore. One of the main reasons we are in this state is because of that man, why is here still here. If Jeter wants fans to come to games he should have cleared house. I'd have bought season tix again this year, but I won't make that investment because one of the main reasons I wanted Loria gone was because I thought that meant Hill would be gone. Unless someone can definitively show me that all the bad contracts, and poor draft choices were Loria's choices and Loria's alone, I cannot and will not trust any rebuild with my ticket purchases.....I was willing to go in and buy until it was announced Hill was staying. 

 

I think I represent a lot of Marlins fans that are not hardcore, but more than casual fans. I think I represent a great deal of people that Jeter was hoping to attract back to going to more games. But he's blown it.....because of some weird power this Hill guy seems to have over this franchise.....almost like a black magic (no pun intended).

 

 

[SilverBullet]

Then why is Mike Hill still around ? His farm system was the worst in MLB for the last 4 years, and if anything is worse over that time. On top of signing really bad contracts with several players that are putting the team in a particularly bad financial state.

 

I just don't get the Hill thing....Jeter needs to explain that one. I am just about to end a 25 year fandom of the franchise if I don't get an answer to that one soon. I can't take it anymore. One of the main reasons we are in this state is because of that man, why is here still here. If Jeter wants fans to come to games he should have cleared house. I'd have bought season tix again this year, but I won't make that investment because one of the main reasons I wanted Loria gone was because I thought that meant Hill would be gone. Unless someone can definitively show me that all the bad contracts, and poor draft choices were Loria's choices and Loria's alone, I cannot and will not trust any rebuild with my ticket purchases.....I was willing to go in and buy until it was announced Hill was staying. 

 

I think I represent a lot of Marlins fans that are not hardcore, but more than casual fans. I think I represent a great deal of people that Jeter was hoping to attract back to going to more games. But he's blown it.....because of some weird power this Hill guy seems to have over this franchise.....almost like a black magic (no pun intended).

 

Well, I don't wanna sound like I'm defending the decision to keep Hill but just for the sake of explaining everything I've heard about it so far... apparently Hill wasn't the one responsible for the bad signings of Chen Tazawa and Ziegler, those who were have already been canned. So apparently Jeter trusts Hill to be one piece of the new front office since the others are not around. It's not out of the question that Mike Hill could do well working with other executives. 

 

Don't count me in as believing that but that seems to be the reasoning at this point.

 

The one other idea is that they're retaining Hill only to help the transition to the new ownership and front office which would mean he's replaced with the next year. 

 

Time will tell. 

 

 

[SilverBullet]

Unloading all the bad deals only sounds like a great plan but you need another team to think so too and good luck with that. They don't have enough incentives in the system to drop contracts like Chen's unless they start tossing in an Ozuna for free.

 

If they were gonna dump Ozuna so easily they should have done it on (Black) Friday. 

 

 

[SilverBullet]

So a general question... the definition of "bad contract" is relative right? It changes based on the team's situation correct?

 

I say this because when the deals were announced very few if any really said the deals for Stanton Chen Prado Ziegler even Gordon were "bad contracts." I'm pretty positive most of us here were in favor of those deals in terms of years and money when they were signed.

 

This of course is under the general acceptance that every contract to some extent must be an overpay.

 

It just seems like most of us consider a contract "good enough" until the player fails and suddenly the money becomes a waste and the team needs to unload the contract and now no other team wants to take on the contract therefore it's all of a sudden a "bad contract." 

 

 

[Edwin Velez]

So a general question... the definition of "bad contract" is relative right? It changes based on the team's situation correct?

 

I say this because when the deals were announced very few if any really said the deals for Stanton Chen Prado Ziegler even Gordon were "bad contracts." I'm pretty positive most of us here were in favor of those deals in terms of years and money when they were signed.

 

This of course is under the general acceptance that every contract to some extent must be an overpay.

 

It just seems like most of us consider a contract "good enough" until the player fails and suddenly the money becomes a waste and the team needs to unload the contract and now no other team wants to take on the contract therefore it's all of a sudden a "bad contract." 

 

Stanton and Gordon are not bad contracts  that is why they are trying to trade them because no one wants the other bad contracts  (Wen, Tazawa and Volquez)

 

However with Stanton and Gordon, few teams can easily absorb their contract without  costing them a lot more in payroll tax so either the Marlins would have to get players with high payroll back or keep some of Dee and G's salary 

 

Prado is a bit of a different story He is an excellent player however due to age and injury history his marketability is hugely diminished... Nobody really knows how many games they can get out of him anymore, that is why he has so little trade value

 

The only way he could be traded is as a throw-in with the Marlins picking up most of his salary

 

There is a reason everyone is asking about Ozuna , Yelich  and Realmuto

 

Youth performance and price tag in salary

 

I apologize if  for many of you  I have just stated the obvious

 

 

[FloridaMarlinsForever]

I can't do another rebuild.  Stanton goes and I'm gone.  First the Stadium was going to resolve the problems.  Then a new owner was going to be the savior.  Instead we get Loria part 2. I don't see any hope.  

 

Im going to agree with you, im kinda done with this team at the moment. The firing of Rich waltzs was the last straw. I wont be watching any games next season in protest. I dont see much hope for this team. People not showing up to the stadium when things are going good. Let alone when they are now pissed off. I think eventually the Marlins will go into contraction. Its just one bad year after another with no fan support . And can you blame them

 

 

[DTrain]

I know myself, so I won’t be quitting watching Marlins games etc.  

 

But with that said, I would totally attend an Opening Day demonstration outside of Marlins Park to give displeasure a voice especially if the Marlins get bent over in the upcoming winter fire sale.  

 

I know it’s a rebuild.  But it’s also a fire sale.  When you buy a pro franchise and trade the reigning MVP it’s a fire sale too. 

 

 

[Rydawg]

So a general question... the definition of "bad contract" is relative right? It changes based on the team's situation correct?

 

I say this because when the deals were announced very few if any really said the deals for Stanton Chen Prado Ziegler even Gordon were "bad contracts." I'm pretty positive most of us here were in favor of those deals in terms of years and money when they were signed.

 

This of course is under the general acceptance that every contract to some extent must be an overpay.

 

It just seems like most of us consider a contract "good enough" until the player fails and suddenly the money becomes a waste and the team needs to unload the contract and now no other team wants to take on the contract therefore it's all of a sudden a "bad contract." 

 

I don't think anyone was thrilled with the Ziegler and Tazawa contracts.  I also remember that we welcomed the idea of Chen but even then the contract was questioned.  The fact that he has been injured and or ineffective does make it even worse because he's virtually untradable.  Stanton's contract I never had and still don't have a problem with.  I believe that it won't be considered so bad when the the likes of Harper, Machado, and Arrenado become free agents.  Hell, look at the money that J D Martinez is looking for this season.  Gordon's contract isn't bad either but we have to dump it because of the other bad contracts and the fact that we can replace him fairly easy with Dietrich and save money to boot.  Prado was always considered an over pay but the sentimental value as the team leader and the intangibles helped us welcome it without questioning it too much.  The problems aren't really even the contract's but rather the lack of planning and foresight by the front office.  How can they have acted so irresponsibly if they knew they were losing that much money?  It's just beyond me.

 

 

[Rydawg]

I know myself, so I won’t be quitting watching Marlins games etc.  

 

But with that said, I would totally attend an Opening Day demonstration outside of Marlins Park to give displeasure a voice especially if the Marlins get bent over in the upcoming winter fire sale.  

 

I know it’s a rebuild.  But it’s also a fire sale.  When you buy a pro franchise and trade the reigning MVP it’s a fire sale too. 

 

Count me in to protest on openning day.  If anyone does organize it I will attend. FUCK JETER!!!

 

 

[Exasperated]

Im going to agree with you, im kinda done with this team at the moment. The firing of Rich waltzs was the last straw. I wont be watching any games next season in protest. I dont see much hope for this team. People not showing up to the stadium when things are going good. Let alone when they are now pissed off. I think eventually the Marlins will go into contraction. Its just one bad year after another with no fan support . And can you blame them

 

Wait a minute...when have they gone good for the team ? 2003 was the last time I can remember it

 

 

[el_gmac]

Count me in to protest on openning day.  If anyone does organize it I will attend. FUCK JETER!!!

 

you'll be the 6th person this time

 

 

 

[Exasperated]

  The problems aren't really even the contract's but rather the lack of planning and foresight by the front office.  How can they have acted so irresponsibly if they knew they were losing that much money?  It's just beyond me.

 

 

 

 

 

Because Loria, I believe, didn't care. He knew (had planned) his exit several years before & know (or hoped) he'd never have to pay those contracts....he didn't GAF......Who knows maybe he did it on purpose just to be an even bigger arsehole ?

 

 

[Exasperated]

Im going to agree with you, im kinda done with this team at the moment. The firing of Rich waltzs was the last straw. I wont be watching any games next season in protest. I dont see much hope for this team. People not showing up to the stadium when things are going good. Let alone when they are now pissed off. I think eventually the Marlins will go into contraction. Its just one bad year after another with no fan support . And can you blame them

 

The only thing is, if they contract them, doesn't the lease on the stadium talk about value and compensation back to the city & county ? Does MLB have to pay that or will the city and county have to sue for it ?

 

 

[SilverBullet]

you'll be the 6th person this time

 

 

That was 2013 right?

 

 

[SilverBullet]

When is the last time a team was actually contracted? I think you're worrying about a non-issue.

 

Looked it up out of curiosity... there has never actually been a contracted MLB team. There have been 12 relocations but never has a team been completely eliminated. In the early days of baseball a few teams may have shut down for brief times but they've all returned eventually. 

 

Anyways there's no way the Marlins are anywhere near contraction even with all their problems. That's just not how contraction even works, they're not even close really. 

 

 

[DTrain]

you'll be the 6th person this time

 

 

You’re comparing whatever year that was (I’m guessing when they traded Reyes etc) to a new ownership trading the reigning MVP.  

 

I’m guessing an organized protest would draw more than 6 people. 

 

 

[SilverBullet]

Pretty sure that one was an "organized protest" as well. Local community just doesn't give enough of a shit.

 

Yeah I'm with you on this one. People will complain at first but no one will really care come Opening Day. Same old disinterested city.

 

Plus I'd argue the 2012 "fire sale" was worse. Loria selling off high priced payers only one season after getting a new ballpark and promising to keep payroll up and to stay competitive? And basically only doing so to save himself more money? To me that's worse than new owners coming in and selling off pieces to fix the mess that the previous owners left behind. Jeter's goal is to build a winner from the ground up, he's said that from day one... Loria's goal was to save himself a buck and he lied after saying he'd maintain a competitive on field product in the new ballpark.