RA Dickey traded to Toronto, signs Extension (2 yrs 25 M)

[Piazza31]

The marlins didnt get fleeced and d'arnard wasn't available.

Nicolino matches with Snydergard, marinek is a top prospect.

 

If you hate the marlins from office so much feel free to root for the jays.

 

Shields is a better pitcher than Johnson and Buerhle.

 

Shields and Davis are both better and cheaper then both Johnson and Buerhle.

 

Dickey is a Reigning Cy Young winner signed for 5 million today and 25 for two years after that. He is worth D'Arnard and Snydergard because he's cheap, he's great and the prospects are expendable.

 

Buerhle at one year is close to what Dickey will make in the next two years.

 

Get your facts straight-

 

And what the heck is a canard?

[Admin]

If you want to have a blind hatred for Loria and company, that is your prerogative but you have to play fair. Comparing our players with Shields or Dickey is comparing apples and oranges. VERY different situations.

 

Also the notion that Loria doesn't care about winning is becoming ridiculous the more it is stated. He wants to win.

[yokofox33]

Marlins didn't get fleeced. They might have gotten an underwhelming return to the naked eye, but money and contract length ARE important. Buerhle and Reyes are going to be really expensive in a couple years. JJ only has 1 year left. Considering they sent a massive amount of years and dollars to the Jays and got back some of their top prospects is actually not too bad at all. It was going to be impossible to move those guys individually (minus Reyes and JJ) without having to eat a lot of salary or take back very little.

 

And Anibal is arguably better than all those pitchers you listed, so yeah, he's worth 16 million a year. I liked Buerhle, but he's an average starter.

[DownRodeo]

they got fleeced.

 

the mets just acquired d'arnard. so clearly he was available. what you meant to say is that the blue jays weren't going to give him to the marlins because they knew the marlins would cave in and dump salary ASAP. which is exactly what happened.

 

syndergaard was rated higher than nicolino on every prospect list i've seen published. but that's really beside the point; assuming syndergaard and nicolino are roughly equal prospects, the mets still got him and d'arnard, the blue jays highest rated prospect.

 

yes, i hate the marlins front office. me and 90% of south florida baseball fans. you act like that's an odd position to hold.

 

i definitely will root for the jays, as JJ, reyes, and buerhle are very easy guys to root for.

 

disagree that shields is a better player than johnson. he's definitely been more durable, but when healthy, johnson has been more dominant. but again, that is beside the point because the marlins gave up johnson and buerhle and reyes, not just johnson.

 

saying wade davis is better than johnson and buerhle is laughable.

 

so now "the prospects are expendable". you said at the beginning of the post that "d'arnard wasn't available." so he just went from unavailable to expendable. make up your mind.

 

just look at the articles that came out in the wake of the trades. after the shields trade: "dayton moore defends trade" "did dayton moore panic?" etc etc. and now we are seeing articles saying the blue jays might have overpaid for dickey.

 

find me any article that says the blue jays gave up too much for johnson, buerhle, and reyes.

 

'canard' is a word. you know there's a book that contains words and the definitions of those words, right?

 

The marlins didnt get fleeced and d'arnard wasn't available.

Nicolino matches with Snydergard, marinek is a top prospect.

 

If you hate the marlins from office so much feel free to root for the jays.

 

Shields is a better pitcher than Johnson and Buerhle.

 

Shields and Davis are both better and cheaper then both Johnson and Buerhle.

 

Dickey is a Reigning Cy Young winner signed for 5 million today and 25 for two years after that. He is worth D'Arnard and Snydergard because he's cheap, he's great and the prospects are expendable.

 

Buerhle at one year is close to what Dickey will make in the next two years.

 

Get your facts straight-

 

And what the heck is a canard?

[DownRodeo]

If you want to have a blind hatred for Loria and company, that is your prerogative but you have to play fair. Comparing our players with Shields or Dickey is comparing apples and oranges. VERY different situations.

 

Also the notion that Loria doesn't care about winning is becoming ridiculous the more it is stated. He wants to win.

c'mon Admin. "blind" hatred? like loria and company haven't given south florida baseball fans reasons to hate them? seriously?

 

i believe loria likes winning, but i believe he likes making money even more. and when choosing between the two, he'll pick money every time.

[Piazza31]

It's obvious you don't know a thing about baseball- durability and performance are the two most important things for a SP.

 

Shields is better.

 

Not only that many GM's have said D'Arnaud wasn't available because he wasn't. Once the Jays shifted from a develop mentality to a all in mentality with the Marlins trade they still wanted to keep D'Arnaud.

 

When they re-evaluated and say a reigning cheap Cy Young winner was available they decided to give him up.

 

And what would the Marlins have done with D'Arnaud and Brantly playing the same position- why even attempt to make him the key to negotiations?

 

It's obvious you have no baseball intellect.

 

Just because you have an Ax to grind doesn't mean you can ignore facts.

 

An expiring contract and a bloated one aren't worth D'Arnaud or Myers.

They are worth Nicolino and Marinsek.

[DownRodeo]

It's obvious you don't know a thing about baseball- durability and performance are the two most important things for a SP.

 

Shields is better.

 

Not only that many GM's have said D'Arnaud wasn't available because he wasn't. Once the Jays shifted from a develop mentality to a all in mentality with the Marlins trade they still wanted to keep D'Arnaud.

 

When they re-evaluated and say a reigning cheap Cy Young winner was available they decided to give him up.

 

And what would the Marlins have done with D'Arnaud and Brantly playing the same position- why even attempt to make him the key to negotiations?

 

It's obvious you have no baseball intellect.

 

Just because you have an Ax to grind doesn't mean you can ignore facts.

 

An expiring contract and a bloated one aren't worth D'Arnaud or Myers.

They are worth Nicolino and Marinsek.

i guess if you keep saying how "obvious" it is, eventually you'll convince yourself it's true.

 

ignore facts? what facts have you presented? you just keep stating how "obvious" everything is.

 

JJ has been more dominant when healthy. shields has been more durable. but there's no guarantee that he'll be as durable going forward. in fact, he's logged a ton of innings and he just hit age 30. look at the history of pitchers who've logged 1400 innings before age 30, and what they do after age 30 (since you 'obviously' have lots of baseball intellect, i can assume you've already done this, right?). but again, all that is beside the point because the marlins didn't just give up johnson, they gave up buerhle and reyes as well.

 

so d'arnaud wasn't available, until he was available. got it. the blue jays just had to 're-evaluate' things. right.

 

oh my god, what would we do with arguably the best catching prospect in baseball...and rob brantly!?

 

they're worth nicolino and marinsek, huh? well, that's certainly what the marlins got for them. if you believe that 'what the marlins got' = 'what they are worth', then i could see where you're coming from. but i have this crazy notion that the marlins front office isn't particularly adept at getting equal value in trades when other teams know that their #1 priority is to shed payroll at all costs. crazy, i know.

[Erick]

Dickey won the Cy Young last year and was only making 5 million per year. The extension he signed...he'll make less money over the next 3 years than Buehrle despite being a much better pitcher.

 

Pretending like contracts don't hurt trade value is ridiculous.

 

Dickey/Shields got better returns because they're much better pitchers on much better contracts.

[Erick]

It's obvious you don't know a thing about baseball- durability and performance are the two most important things for a SP.

 

Shields is better.

 

Not only that many GM's have said D'Arnaud wasn't available because he wasn't. Once the Jays shifted from a develop mentality to a all in mentality with the Marlins trade they still wanted to keep D'Arnaud.

 

When they re-evaluated and say a reigning cheap Cy Young winner was available they decided to give him up.

 

And what would the Marlins have done with D'Arnaud and Brantly playing the same position- why even attempt to make him the key to negotiations?

 

It's obvious you have no baseball intellect.

 

Just because you have an Ax to grind doesn't mean you can ignore facts.

 

An expiring contract and a bloated one aren't worth D'Arnaud or Myers.

They are worth Nicolino and Marinsek.

i guess if you keep saying how "obvious" it is, eventually you'll convince yourself it's true.

 

ignore facts? what facts have you presented? you just keep stating how "obvious" everything is.

 

JJ has been more dominant when healthy. shields has been more durable. but there's no guarantee that he'll be as durable going forward. in fact, he's logged a ton of innings and he just hit age 30. look at the history of pitchers who've logged 1400 innings before age 30, and what they do after age 30 (since you 'obviously' have lots of baseball intellect, i can assume you've already done this, right?). but again, all that is beside the point because the marlins didn't just give up johnson, they gave up buerhle and reyes as well.

 

so d'arnaud wasn't available, until he was available. got it. the blue jays just had to 're-evaluate' things. right.

 

oh my god, what would we do with arguably the best catching prospect in baseball...and rob brantly!?

 

they're worth nicolino and marinsek, huh? well, that's certainly what the marlins got for them. if you believe that 'what the marlins got' = 'what they are worth', then i could see where you're coming from. but i have this crazy notion that the marlins front office isn't particularly adept at getting equal value in trades when other teams know that their #1 priority is to shed payroll at all costs. crazy, i know.

I don't understand why you keep saying this.

 

D'Arnaud was available...for an ace who signed a cheap extension in an inflated SP market. That's not what we traded. We traded different assets.

[Piazza31]

Here's my facts-

 

James Shields- Big Game James

Over the last three years-

226 Average Innings pitched

33 Games a Year

3rd in Cy Young Voting, 16th in MVP Voting in 2011

11 Complete Games in 2011, 3 in 2012

3.66 ERA Average including his 5.18 ERA in 2010.

2.82 ERA in 2011, 3.52 in 2012

Owed 9 mill in 2013 and 12 million option in 2014

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

 

R.A. Dickey- Raw Dickey

Over the last three years-

31 games a year

2.95 ERA Average

205 innings pitched average

2.84, 3.28 and 2.78 each year.

20 game winner on a shitty team last year

2012 reigning cy young winner

174, 208, and 233 innings the last three years

Owed 5 Mil in 2013, 13Mil in both 2014, 2015

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

 

Josh Johnson- JJ

2.58 ERA last three years (only started 9 games in 2011)

Last 3 Full Seasons, 3.11 (2009,2010,2012)

145 innings 3 year average, 183 in 2010, and 191 last year.

2010, 5th in CY young, 25th in MVP

One Complete game in last three years, 4 for his career.

Owed 13.75 Million in the final year of his contract.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo09.shtml

 

Mark Buerhle-

205 inning pitched average last three years

3.87 ERA average the last three years

32 games a year average

3 Complete games in 2010, 1 in 2012

Three Gold Gloves, no votes for Cy Young, MVP or ASG appearances the last three years.

Owed 11 Million in 2013, 18 Million in 2014, and 19 Million in 2015

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml

 

Now, HOW THE HELL ARE JOSH JOHNSON AND MARK BUERHLE AS GOOD AS JAMES SHIELDS AND RA DICKEY?

 

Dickey and Shields are once again, better, cheaper and signed for better contract than JJ or Buerhle.

 

 

Theres your facts,

[Mets_bs]

I'm just sad to see RA go. The return is good and as baseball moves go, the Mets got more than a fair return ... but RA Dickey was ours. We saw something in a 35 year old knuckleballer and gave him the shot. We watched him come out of nowhere to mow through the league with a pitch thrown a way no one ever has seen. We gave him the nickname RA Moosec*ck. I'm sad to see him go more than any other player I've seen leave the Mets. Killer pitcher, a killer story, and an even better person. Some players you like because of what they bring to a team and some players have a connection with a fanbase that goes beyond the uniform. I'll be watching him as much as possible, hope the Jays come good next season.

[SilverBullet]

Here's my facts-

 

James Shields- Big Game James

Over the last three years-

226 Average Innings pitched

33 Games a Year

3rd in Cy Young Voting, 16th in MVP Voting in 2011

11 Complete Games in 2011, 3 in 2012

3.66 ERA Average including his 5.18 ERA in 2010.

2.82 ERA in 2011, 3.52 in 2012

Owed 9 mill in 2013 and 12 million option in 2014

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

 

R.A. Dickey- Raw Dickey

Over the last three years-

31 games a year

2.95 ERA Average

205 innings pitched average

2.84, 3.28 and 2.78 each year.

20 game winner on a shitty team last year

2012 reigning cy young winner

174, 208, and 233 innings the last three years

Owed 5 Mil in 2013, 13Mil in both 2014, 2015

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

 

Josh Johnson- JJ

2.58 ERA last three years (only started 9 games in 2011)

Last 3 Full Seasons, 3.11 (2009,2010,2012)

145 innings 3 year average, 183 in 2010, and 191 last year.

2010, 5th in CY young, 25th in MVP

One Complete game in last three years, 4 for his career.

Owed 13.75 Million in the final year of his contract.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo09.shtml

 

Mark Buerhle-

205 inning pitched average last three years

3.87 ERA average the last three years

32 games a year average

3 Complete games in 2010, 1 in 2012

Three Gold Gloves, no votes for Cy Young, MVP or ASG appearances the last three years.

Owed 11 Million in 2013, 18 Million in 2014, and 19 Million in 2015

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml

 

Now, HOW THE HELL ARE JOSH JOHNSON AND MARK BUERHLE AS GOOD AS JAMES SHIELDS AND RA DICKEY?

 

Dickey and Shields are once again, better, cheaper and signed for better contract than JJ or Buerhle.

 

 

Theres your facts,

 

 

Piazza, you could have saved all that typing and still gotten straight to the point by just showing that Mark Buerhle is the only one without a nickname. Big Game James/RAW Dickey/JJ > Mark Buerhle. End of story,

[Piazza31]

He wanted facts, hopefully he will understand them.

 

But your absolutely right.

[Piazza31]

Your right too.

 

Fucking autocorrect on this iPhone.

[Hotcorner]

Of the sanchez- syndergard trio, nicolino is supposed to be the most polished. Syndergard has a big fastball they all love but his secondary pitches are far behind. if it all works out he might have a little higher ceiling but he could also wind up in the pen. Sanches has some control issues so far. i think they basically got the guy with the highest floor.

[DownRodeo]

Here's my facts-

 

James Shields- Big Game James

Over the last three years-

226 Average Innings pitched

33 Games a Year

3rd in Cy Young Voting, 16th in MVP Voting in 2011

11 Complete Games in 2011, 3 in 2012

3.66 ERA Average including his 5.18 ERA in 2010.

2.82 ERA in 2011, 3.52 in 2012

Owed 9 mill in 2013 and 12 million option in 2014

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

 

R.A. Dickey- Raw Dickey

Over the last three years-

31 games a year

2.95 ERA Average

205 innings pitched average

2.84, 3.28 and 2.78 each year.

20 game winner on a shitty team last year

2012 reigning cy young winner

174, 208, and 233 innings the last three years

Owed 5 Mil in 2013, 13Mil in both 2014, 2015

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

 

Josh Johnson- JJ

2.58 ERA last three years (only started 9 games in 2011)

Last 3 Full Seasons, 3.11 (2009,2010,2012)

145 innings 3 year average, 183 in 2010, and 191 last year.

2010, 5th in CY young, 25th in MVP

One Complete game in last three years, 4 for his career.

Owed 13.75 Million in the final year of his contract.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo09.shtml

 

Mark Buerhle-

205 inning pitched average last three years

3.87 ERA average the last three years

32 games a year average

3 Complete games in 2010, 1 in 2012

Three Gold Gloves, no votes for Cy Young, MVP or ASG appearances the last three years.

Owed 11 Million in 2013, 18 Million in 2014, and 19 Million in 2015

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/buehrma01.shtml

 

Now, HOW THE HELL ARE JOSH JOHNSON AND MARK BUERHLE AS GOOD AS JAMES SHIELDS AND RA DICKEY?

 

Dickey and Shields are once again, better, cheaper and signed for better contract than JJ or Buerhle.

 

 

Theres your facts,

 

 

****face, eh? didn't realize i was talking to a 12-year-old kid. this will be my last post in this thread.

 

here's the part that you can't seem to grasp. your individual comparisons are meaningless. the marlins did not give up johnson, buerhle, and reyes in separate trades. all three went to toronto. last year, these three players combined for 9.1 WAR (i'll take it as a given you know what WAR is on account of your dizzying baseball intellect). that is a ton of wins to be sent over in one trade; in fact, you'd be hard pressed to find any trade in recent history where one team received so many wins (and gave up so few). as good as dickey was last year, he had only 5.4 WAR on his own. shields and wade davis combined had 3.6 WAR (fyi, jj was almost 1 full WAR better than shields last season alone). interestingly enough, add up the WARs of dickey, shields, and davis, and you get 9.0. so the marlins gave up the equivalent of dickey, shields, and davis in terms of wins to one team in a single trade, and did not receive a single prospect as good as what the mets received for just dickey or what the rays received for just shields and davis. that's embarrassing, and that's why the marlins got fleeced.

[mystikol87]

What do you don't seem to grasp is contract status and the fact that any given WAR is worth less (in a trade) when spread among more players. It's not very hard to acquire 5 1-WAR players, and they take up 5 roster spots. It's much harder to acquire 1 5-WAR player, as it should be.

[Piazza31]

It's been proven-

 

DownRodeo must be BroncoBob's Doppelgänger with Down Syndrome.

[Puma]

LOL @ "blind Loria hate". Some people just can't come to grips that this is the most poorly run organization in baseball.

[Michael]

DownRodeo, you got on me a bit for smartass sarcasm and mockery, yet you've got about 4 posts in this thread ALONE with exactly those things, with a side of condescension. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Admin]

LOL @ "blind Loria hate". Some people just can't come to grips that this is the most poorly run organization in baseball.

and some people can't look past their hate.

[Admin]

What do you don't seem to grasp is contract status and the fact that any given WAR is worth less (in a trade) when spread among more players. It's not very hard to acquire 5 1-WAR players, and they take up 5 roster spots. It's much harder to acquire 1 5-WAR player, as it should be.

I call that the "fantasy baseball mentality."

 

Whenever I play fantasy, there's always one dumbass who thinks its fair to trade 3 okay players for one great player. Not only do they take up more roster spots, but they require me to drop my own players who are probably just as good as the ones I'd be getting in the trade.

[EricWiener]

A Canard is either a lie, or in the poster's usage, a belief that is not founded in fact.

 

Abner Doubleday invented baseball in Cooperstown, NY would be a good example.

[Puma]

LOL @ "blind Loria hate". Some people just can't come to grips that this is the most poorly run organization in baseball.

 

 

and some people can't look past their hate. But Admin, you speak as though Loria & Co has done nothing to warrant any kind of criticism. I'm not saying you can't defend Loria, but there's a reason many people are upset. It's not blind hatred.

[Admin]

I'll just hold back comment until my upcoming editorial. I'll let it speak for me.