having Gordon is way better than having Solano, but that trade might have been pretty lopsided looking back on it in a few years.

 

I like Latos a lot. + if Haren decides to pitch that would be awesome.

 

the Marlins are doing good so far.

 

 

I don't get the reasoning for spinning the Gordon trade this way.

 

"We have Kolek, so we don't need Heaney" doesn't add up.

First of all, Kolek is at least three years away. Second of all, having one great asset doesn't Mean you don't need more great assets.

 

The team got better but they lost that particular trade.

 

 

Good point about the Gordon trade.

 

I'm just saying that in three years time we'll be looking at what Gordon/Haren brought to the Marlins, and what the players we gave up brought to the Dodgers/Angels, and see this trade in a different light.

 

 

I will say pitching and defense wins games and we got a hell of a lot better pitching now and we have a much better option at 2nd base, than what we had before so we are a better team for sure going into next season

 

Haren is still a question mark, but I like the idea of flipping him over to the Angels

 

for CJ Cron or Kaleb Cowart

 

or to the Padres for Yonder Alonso and a prospect like Jose Rondon since Alonso is still overcoming injuries

 

 

BTW I like the idea of Brett Butler working with Dee Gordon to make him a legitimate leadoff hitter

 

 

Good point about the Gordon trade.

 

I'm just saying that in three years time we'll be looking at what Gordon/Haren brought to the Marlins, and what the players we gave up brought to the Dodgers/Angels, and see this trade in a different light.

 

 

 

Hopefully we look back on this just like we look back on the Uggy trade in 2003, and no matter what we gave up, we know we won.

Upgrade either 1B or 3B, and we'll talk about possibly being a playoff team.

 

Still don't see it just yet.

 

 

yeah needs that & then we're probably in the discussion. It's still a weak infield at the moment.

 

So far so good.

 

 

So, do you think we won or lost?

 

LOST

 

DeSclafani

 

Wallach

 

Heaney

 

Hatcher

 

Hernandez

 

Barnes

 

Jennings

 

Flynn

 

Redman

 

Lucas

 

Brantley

 

Canha

 

Olmos

 

Furcal

 

Gregg

 

Johnson

 

Penny

 

GAINED

 

Latos

 

Gordon

 

Haren

 

Rojas

 

Rienzo

 

Crow

 

McKirahan

 

 

I would frame this much differently:

 

Out:

 

Heaney

 

DeScalfani

 

Hatcher

 

E. Hernandez

 

Barnes

 

Jennings

 

Flynn

 

Redman

 

-Everyone 5-6 years of control

 

In:

 

Latos 1 year control (potential 2 draft pick compensation 2016)

 

D. Gordon, 4 years control

 

Haren, 1 year control

 

Crow, 1 year control

 

Rienzo

 

$12.5 million in new salary (minus the $12.5 received from Dodgers - rough estimates Latos $10, Haren $10, Gordon $2.5, Crow $2.5ish, etc.)

 

This is overall a win even if they sold Heaney way low (which is insane), but the Latos deal is preposterous and can't believe they did that. Whether Latos stays or goes, having him as a long term 2 or getting the draft picks are both super ideal situations.

 

Offseason overall is still a "C" at best until they radically upgrade 1B/3B with a win now player (Headley, Morneau, maybe Morse) and trade Cishek/Eovaldi/other pitching for another young infielder who is relatively play now (i.e. the inevitable McGehee replacement), but they have time and suspect they know this. We'll see.

 

 

Good point about the Gordon trade.

 

I'm just saying that in three years time we'll be looking at what Gordon/Haren brought to the Marlins, and what the players we gave up brought to the Dodgers/Angels, and see this trade in a different light.

 

 

 

Sure, but whatever the results are will be independent of the value they got in the trade. I'm hoping Gordy can be a slightly better Boni, which is a reasonable hope.

I would frame this much differently:

 

Out:

Heaney

DeScalfani

Hatcher

E. Hernandez

Barnes

Jennings

Flynn

Redman

-Everyone 5-6 years of control

 

In:

Latos 1 year control (potential 2 draft pick compensation 2016)

D. Gordon, 4 years control

Haren, 1 year control

Crow, 1 year control

Rienzo

$12.5 million in new salary (minus the $12.5 received from Dodgers - rough estimates Latos $10, Haren $10, Gordon $2.5, Crow $2.5ish, etc.)

 

 

This is overall a win even if they sold Heaney way low (which is insane), but the Latos deal is preposterous and can't believe they did that. Whether Latos stays or goes, having him as a long term 2 or getting the draft picks are both super ideal situations.

 

Offseason overall is still a "C" at best until they radically upgrade 1B/3B with a win now player (Headley, Morneau, maybe Morse) and trade Cishek/Eovaldi/other pitching for another young infielder who is relatively play now (i.e. the inevitable McGehee replacement), but they have time and suspect they know this. We'll see.

 

 

 

Are we sure Justin Bour can't come close to the production Morse would offer? Depends on the money, but he's a lefty who tore up AAA and has a good minor league career. Hitting between Stanton and Ozuna can only help.

 

Just saying, someone better than Jones could very well be on the roster ( mostly because Jones sucks)

how would latos get 2 draft pick compensation?

 

 

Are we sure Justin Bour can't come close to the production Morse would offer? Depends on the money, but he's a lefty who tore up AAA and has a good minor league career. Hitting between Stanton and Ozuna can only help.

 

Just saying, someone better than Jones could very well be on the roster ( mostly because Jones sucks)

 

 

Bour's splits suggest he is going to struggle in a Jones like way against LHP. I'd rather have Morse for a year or 2 and let Bour develop.

 

 

Headley would be perfect now. Shift McGehee to 1B and, all things considered, our overall defense will be above average if Gordon and Hechavarria have some improvement in 2015.

Headley would really be a great piece that makes a lot of sense, but the price for him is getting in that ludicrous range

 

 

We're trying to win next year. Can people stop mentioning Bour as a possibility? That would be a loser move.

Headley would be perfect now. Shift McGehee to 1B and, all things considered, our overall defense will be above average if Gordon and Hechavarria have some improvement in 2015.

 

 

 

Absolutely. Then trade Cishek for a young 1B who is MLB ready by the summer (and to clear salary for Headley). It's not the ideal "protection" they want for Stanton, but they can fill that with McGehee's eventual replacement, hopefully what they would hypothetically trade Cishek for

We're trying to win next year. Can people stop mentioning Bour as a possibility? That would be a loser move.

 

 

 

This.

how would latos get 2 draft pick compensation?

 

 

 

Assuming he is healthy, they would tender him a contract, he would decline, and Marlins would get draft picks from who sign him. Ala how if he Marlins sign Shields they would send Royals their 1st round pick and Royals would get a comp pick

We're trying to win next year. Can people stop mentioning Bour as a possibility? That would be a loser move.

 

 

I agree 100%! My thoughts on him are if he was good enough to be a starter, then why did we have to sign Jones to a two year contract last year? I trust the evaluators in the FO a lot more than some.e of you guys and that's obviously justified.

Bour had one nice year at the age of 26 in the PCL. That's all he's really done.

 

You don't promise your $325 million player protection in the lineup and come up with Justin Bour as the solution. It's funny how many people hate Garrett Jones, yet like Bour at the same time. If you give Bour a full season in the big leagues, he's likely no better than Garrett Jones.

 

Just because Bour is more of an unknown doesn't mean that he's any better. We need an upgrade and should have the assets/money to get the player we need.

 

 

WHy not do what you can, but enter the season with the idea that you'll upgrade when teams fall out of contention or want to move contracts? Why not see where Arod is during Spring training and see if he can be shook loose for a prospect and his salary paid?

 

Spitballin' here, but why force a move if it's not there. Alvarez and Morneu arent long term answers, Headly is headign for a 60-80MM deal. Maybe Prince will be available, Rizzo , others.

 

Why pigeonhole yourself with what the market only has now, unless its just money were throwing at players and not trades.

 

 

Problem with Headley, while he's a decent piece, I don't see him as the power we need in our lineup behind Stanton. He can hit but he doesn't bring the pop that Morneau Morse and Alvarez could bring to the cleanup spot.

 

Also, unrelated thought... Thinking back to the 2012 Toronto trade, it's pretty amazing that we got Mat freaking Latos for Desclafani, who was basically a throw in prospect that we weren't too sure would amount to much. I'm not saying he sucks and the Reds got nothing for Latos but if I'd have told u two years ago that the guy who's name we couldn't pronounce would be traded for Mat Latos, you'd have thought I was crazy.

There are a lot of question marks right now in our organization. If Tom Koehler is in our starting rotation next season and we trade Eovaldi, we have failed. Haren is a high risk if he pitches for us. Latos is a risk because he hasn't been good lately. We have a lot of possibilities going forward. It depends on what we do about first base and what we do about our rotation.

 

I think the biggest thing that I am curious about is if Dee can continue to steal bags. His BABIP defines his value. If he is able to consistently get on the base paths and continue to steal bags above 75% percent he will become an extremely important part of our lineup. If he doesn't do those things we will have lost big.

 

 

Assuming he is healthy, they would tender him a contract, he would decline, and Marlins would get draft picks from who sign him. Ala how if he Marlins sign Shields they would send Royals their 1st round pick and Royals would get a comp pick

 

 

 

marlins would get 1 draft pick, that system has been done for about 3 years now.

 

 

There are a lot of question marks right now in our organization. If Tom Koehler is in our starting rotation next season and we trade Eovaldi, we have failed. Haren is a high risk if he pitches for us. Latos is a risk because he hasn't been good lately. We have a lot of possibilities going forward. It depends on what we do about first base and what we do about our rotation.

 

I think the biggest thing that I am curious about is if Dee can continue to steal bags. His BABIP defines his value. If he is able to consistently get on the base paths and continue to steal bags above 75% percent he will become an extremely important part of our lineup. If he doesn't do those things we will have lost big.

 

 

 

I disagree about Koehler/Eovaldi but the second paragraph is spot on. I am extremely confident in Gordon, and the things you pointed out are what make him so valuable to how he fits in to our lineup.

It's far to early to determine if trading PROSPECTS is a good deal or not. I agree that Gordon has an upside that can't be matched by anyone in the league if he can get on base at an above average clip. He also gets to a lot of balls that most others can't get to in the field. I'm o.k. with trading prospects for a high upside impact player that can contribute now. We gave up two average prospects and a possibly average Heaney (3rd in the rotation) for a once proven all-star with the possibility of many more. Remember this guy didn't start playing baseball till high school so he is still relatively new to the game.

 

If Latos' arm is healthy and the reduced MPH over the last three seasons is not a negative sign of this then I'm o.k. with his trade also. If he sits in as a solid 2 he is exactly what we need. Wallach has a nice upside but is still at such a low level of baseball it is ridiculous to value his potential beyond decent prospect. When Fernandez is back we should all be excited about the Latos deal.