15 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

But Jeter and his hires sucked and ruined us

I think Mel may only be the actual good hire he made?  And I think Mel was actually a friend of Donnie's? 

I'm trying to think of any lol

28 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

This is the annoying part of it. The Braves can not be so good that suddenly the Marlins just forget how to play baseball. It's a little illogical that we've been so good against everyone else and the exact opposite against the Braves and Mets. Like how have we not sneaked out even a couple more wins vs them is my point.

Or maybe the Marlins aren't really that good and have a ton of one run wins against other teams.  I think most of us expect to see that drop significantly as the season goes on.  The run differential and the stats don't lie, its a bad team.

Just now, LordMagnus said:

The run differential and the stats don't lie, its a bad team.

I don't care what the stats say in a situation like this. They find ways to win vs everyone else. To think they can't do the same vs one team just because that team has a Braves logo on their jersey is silly. I'm not saying they're better than the Braves, I'm saying it's crazy that they can find ways to win vs everyone else but can almost never do it vs Atlanta. 

3 minutes ago, LordMagnus said:

have a ton of one run wins against other teams

So here the one run wins are an indicator of the team actually not being very good and only barely sneaking out some wins? More reason why that one run stat thing annoys me.

22 minutes ago, SilverBullet said:

So here the one run wins are an indicator of the team actually not being very good and only barely sneaking out some wins? More reason why that one run stat thing annoys me.

i think it's an indicator of having a better pen this year along with having Arraez (yes, literally just having Arraez in the lineup).  They've gotten actual key hits here and there in the 1 run games and largely have gotten blown away in anything other than their 1 run wins.  They aren't winning many games 5-2 or something along those lines...it's either a 1 run win or they get stomped.  That, to me, indicates they aren't a very good team overall as that model is not very sustainable. 

Again, they need another bat and they need Sandy to figure his shit out (or go on the IL - if we're all correct).  Likely only one of those things will happen though and I don't think it's the former.

 

edit:   Would any of us really be surprised if they went on an extended losing stretch where they drop something like 9 of 10?  I don't think we would be all that surprised to be honest.  They still don't "feel" like a good team or even a playoff contending team yet. 

Better than last season? Yes.

But good? No.

Edited May 5, 20233 yr by hovertical

It seems to be like an almost psychological mindset type issue when the Marlins play the Braves. It just seems like the Braves have had the Marlins number for years and years even regardless of the roster or manager or rotation, and especially when they play in Miami, but also at home as well. It sounds weird, but I’m sure most of you have heard of the concept of “having a team identity” like for example, the Heat’s head coach Erik Spolstra has been preaching to his team for years about the team identity as winners and playing to their identity. So the theory goes that you will generally live up to your identity etc.

The point I’m trying to make is that it really feels like the Braves organization have this “team identity” of “we always dominate the Marlins.” 

Because it’s been the same story over many years, and doesn’t matter who’s on the team, who the manager or owner or GM or starting rotation is..

True facts:

Since 2003 to now, the Marlins have only won the season series vs the Braves 3 times - 2003, 2009, and 2014. And a couple of those season were only slightly like a 10-9 record vs the Braves during the season.

On the flip side, in the past 20 seasons, the Braves have won the season series vs the Marlins 17 times. And a lot of those seasons, was by a large margin like 14-5 vs the Marlins for the season etc.

And because it has been so consistent over the years even with all the different teams the Marlins have had over the years, even when they have had Beckett, Dontrelle Willis, Josh Johnson, Ricky Nolasco, Sandy Alcantara, Stanton, JT, Yelich, Cabrera, Carlos Delgado, Hanley Ramirez etc. You get the point of what I’m saying. A cynic would say something like “Well, that’s just because the Marlins suck every single year. Hahahaha.”

But I don’t know, to me it seems like the Braves organization have this mindset and see themselves as Marlins dominators and have this expectation that they will always win and they always seem to live up to that view of themselves.

11 minutes ago, hovertical said:

i think it's an indicator of having a better pen this year along with having Arraez (yes, literally just having Arraez in the lineup).  They've gotten actual key hits here and there in the 1 run games and largely have gotten blown away in anything other than their 1 run wins.  They aren't winning many games 5-2 or something along those lines...it's either a 1 run win or they get stomped.  That, to me, indicates they aren't a very good team overall as that model is not very sustainable. 

Again, they need another bat and they need Sandy to figure his shit out (or go on the IL - if we're all correct).  Likely only one of those things will happen though and I don't think it's the former.

 

edit:   Would any of us really be surprised if they went on an extended losing stretch where they drop something like 9 of 10?  I don't think we would be all that surprised to be honest.  They still don't "feel" like a good team or even a playoff contending team yet. 

Better than last season? Yes.

But good? No.

I would say they probably are a playoff contender (and I use that term loosely), but that's only because the rest of the NL just isn't very good as a whole and not because the Marlins are actually any good. Like, they could win 81 games and finish a few games out of a playoff spot. 

Edited May 5, 20233 yr by Valid

Just now, Valid said:

I would say they probably are a playoff contender (and I use that term loosely), but that's only because the rest of the NL just isn't very good as a whole and not because the Marlins are actually any good. Like, they could win 81 games and finish a few games out of a playoff spot. 

I could definitely see the Marlins making the playoff as a wild card team. However, with the way they have played against the Braves and Mets, I can’t see them making it any farther than the NLCS, similar to 2020. If they have to go through an NL East team in the NLCS to make the WS. I don’t see that happening, not with the current roster.

1 hour ago, SirFishFan said:

It seems to be like an almost psychological mindset type issue when the Marlins play the Braves.

This is what I have always thought, and to add to your theory of "team identity" I can see that being likely. It's the way we've always said Chipper Jones was a Marlins-killer, and now it's Riley. 

The Braves have said the same about our players (I think Jazz and BA?). Yet the Marlins are not "Braves dominators".

With the way the bullpen has been dancing between the raindrops so far this season, it is inevitable that some regression will result in us starting to lose some of those games we have been winning.  Guys like Brazoban and Scott just aren't that good and when they regress it will start to get ugly.

With the starters not going deep, the bullpen is going to be cooked by June or July.  No amount of journeymen band-aids like Smeltzer, Nolin, and Chi Chi f'n Rodriguez is going to gloss over that.  Hopefully some of the young fireballers will get a chance to step up and take their lumps for the long term betterment of the club.

And Brant Brown is making some strides, but we still have some atrocious looking at bats with far too many swings and misses.  Burdick, of all people, had a nice at bat yesterday where he worked the count, fouled off some tough pitches, and earned a walk.  We need to see more of that and less swings and "mishes".

Most of the prospects in the minors haven't made significant strides in this approach to batting, so it is an organizational problem.

This team really not that good. 

55 minutes ago, QbanCastillo said:

This is what I have always thought, and to add to your theory of "team identity" I can see that being likely. It's the way we've always said Chipper Jones was a Marlins-killer, and now it's Riley. 

The Braves have said the same about our players (I think Jazz and BA?). Yet the Marlins are not "Braves dominators".

Yeah absolutely.

Of course, the majority of people will say that all of this is hogwash and the reality is just that the Braves have always had better players and the Marlins worse players so naturally the Braves will win more games etc. Which may be true to some extent. But I guess in the bigger picture the whole idea of "team identity" is true to a large degree on an organizational and practical level just in the sense of like if the team identifies as a "winning team" or "team that always makes the post season" then they usually will live up to that, either by the FO signing the right players to make the team better or the current players stepping up, etc.

It's why teams like the Yankees and Dodgers and Braves and Cardinals(not this season) and Astros and Rays are usually always winning and making the playoffs more often than not, it's like they have created this perception and identity as winning teams and usually every year its the same result - making the post season.

And actually we are seeing it currently happening with the Pirates, who somehow and on some level is changing their own perception of themselves and are playing like a dominate team. Will it last all year? Only time will tell, but if they keep on this path, the playoffs are going to look very different than what we're used to seeing.

Marlins on the other hand, I feel like have most of their history had this reputation and team identity of something like "Scraggly group of guys who will play hard but never quite good enough to make the playoff."

But all this definitely starts at the top, the whole idea of creating a winning culture. That's what happened in the 1997 season. And that's what Jack McKeon was able to do in 2003, he was able to make those group of players on some level identify as a winning team.

I feel like in 2012 with opening the new stadium and all of the excitement they almost came close with changing the culture and team concept but of course that fizzled out fast. 2017 was probably the last time that they were getting close to changing things finally. But of course, new ownership comes in and now they identify as "Work in progress".

Actually I just had a insight in writing all that down. I feel like the Marlins team identity for most of their history has been "We're a work in progress!"

The problem with that is then that is all they will ever live up to, as has been the case for most of their history. Things won't change until they start to identify as a winning team. Wayne Huizenga was able to do it in 1997 by spending whatever it took to make it happen. Jack McKeon was able to do it in 2003 with that group of guys, who were talented, not as much as the 97 team, but just enough that McKeon was able to get them there.

 

Nothing is going change permanently until the Marlins start to identify as a "winning team". But not just a winning team but also a team that has this concept of themselves as "We're the Marlins, we can play with the best of the best and win!" Just typing that feels so unnatural. 😂

But the point is that the moment they can, as an organization, change their self concept and identity from "We're a work in progress" to "We're a winning team and can beat and dominate any other team we play" and as an organization be willing to spend the money to sign the right players and get the pieces they need then that will be the time when they will start making the playoffs in consecutive seasons and so on and so forth.

Problem is who knows when that will happen?

Edited May 5, 20233 yr by SirFishFan

2 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

So here the one run wins are an indicator of the team actually not being very good and only barely sneaking out some wins? More reason why that one run stat thing annoys me.

Actually, yes.  Most teams lose and win one run games about around equally..  The Marlins record in one run games is not sustainable.  The starters aren't going deep into games and the bullpen is going to be over taxed very shortly. The hitting is abysmal.  So yeah...the record is an aberration more than anything.

15 minutes ago, SirFishFan said:

Yeah absolutely.

Of course, the majority of people will say that all of this is hogwash and the reality is just that the Braves have always had better players and the Marlins worse players so naturally the Braves will win more games etc. Which may be true to some extent. But I guess in the bigger picture the whole idea of "team identity" is true to a large degree on an organizational and practical level just in the sense of like if the team identifies as a "winning team" or "team that always makes the post season" then they usually will live up to that, either by the FO signing the right players to make the team better or the current players stepping up, etc.

It's why teams like the Yankees and Dodgers and Braves and Cardinals(not this season) and Astros and Rays are usually always winning and making the playoffs more often than not, it's like they have created this perception and identity as winning teams and usually every year its the same result - making the post season.

And actually we are seeing it currently happening with the Pirates, who somehow and on some level is changing their own perception of themselves and are playing like a dominate team. Will it last all year? Only time will tell, but if they keep on this path, the playoffs are going to look very different than what we're used to seeing.

Marlins on the other hand, I feel like have most of their history had this reputation and team identity of something like "Scraggly group of guys who will play hard but never quite good enough to make the playoff."

But all this definitely starts at the top, the whole idea of creating a winning culture. That's what happened in the 1997 season. And that's what Jack McKeon was able to do in 2003, he was able to make those group of players on some level identify as a winning team.

I feel like in 2012 with opening the new stadium and all of the excitement they almost came close with changing the culture and team concept but of course that fizzled out fast. 2017 was probably the last time that they were getting close to changing things finally. But of course, new ownership comes in and now they identify as "Work in progress".

Actually I just had a insight in writing all that down. I feel like the Marlins team identity for most of their history has been "We're a work in progress!"

The problem with that is then that is all they will ever live up to, as has been the case for most of their history. Things won't change until they start to identify as a winning team. Wayne Huizenga was able to do it in 1997 by spending whatever it took to make it happen. Jack McKeon was able to do it in 2003 with that group of guys, who were talented, not as much as the 97 team, but just enough that McKeon was able to get them there.

 

Nothing is going change permanently until the Marlins start to identify as a "winning team". But not just a winning team but also a team that has this concept of themselves as "We're the Marlins, we can play with the best of the best and win!" Just typing that feels so unnatural. 😂

But the point is that the moment they can, as an organization, change their self concept and identity from "We're a work in progress" to "We're a winning team and can beat and dominate any other team we play" and as an organization be willing to spend the money to sign the right players and get the pieces they need then that will be the time when they will start making the playoffs in consecutive seasons and so on and so forth.

Problem is who knows when that will happen?

Yes

4 hours ago, LordMagnus said:

Actually, yes.  Most teams lose and win one run games about around equally..  The Marlins record in one run games is not sustainable.  The starters aren't going deep into games and the bullpen is going to be over taxed very shortly. The hitting is abysmal.  So yeah...the record is an aberration more than anything.

This falls in line with my point of I don't get why everyone is so excited about that one run win stat. 

5 hours ago, SirFishFan said:

And actually we are seeing it currently happening with the Pirates, who somehow and on some level is changing their own perception of themselves and are playing like a dominate team. Will it last all year? Only time will tell, but if they keep on this path, the playoffs are going to look very different than what we're used to seeing.

...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

I feel like in 2012 with opening the new stadium and all of the excitement they almost came close with changing the culture and team concept but of course that fizzled out fast. 2017 was probably the last time that they were getting close to changing things finally. But of course, new ownership comes in and now they identify as "Work in progress".

I agree with everything you said except these two points.

Outside of a short stretch between 2013 and 2015, the Pirates have been one of the worst franchises in baseball (probably the worst) since the early '90s. It's going to take a lot more than a decent start over 30 or so games to change their culture. Lol. Heck, even the Marlins have had some seasons where they've gotten off to pretty great starts and we see where that has gotten us.

And as for things fizzling out in 2017, I would actually argue they fizzled out the moment Jose died in 2016. That group of Stanton, Yelich, Ozuna and Jose was actually really, really good on paper, and they were playoff contenders for a good portion of 2016. Jose's death pretty much put the kibosh on everything, both from a talent and an emotional standpoint. It completely took the air out of that group, and the only reason why 2017 was even all that watchable was because Stanton had arguably the most dominant stretch in MLB history.

Edited May 6, 20233 yr by Valid

Top 8 least dominant pitchers in Marlins history:

1. Robert Dugger

2. Jordan Yamamoto

3. Sean Nolin

4. Johan Quesada 

5. Adam Conley

6. Wei-Yin Chen

7. Ureña

8. Anthony Bass

 

Marlins top 8 most dominant pitchers:

1. Jose

2. Beckett

3. Kevin Brown

4. Josh Johnson

5. Sandy Alcantara

6. Willians Astudillo

7. Dontrelle Willis

8. Jacob Stallings

I believe in Skip, I believe he's HUNGRY for win. 

Edited May 6, 20233 yr by TaiwanMarlins

On 5/5/2023 at 4:42 PM, SirFishFan said:

Yeah absolutely.

Of course, the majority of people will say that all of this is hogwash and the reality is just that the Braves have always had better players and the Marlins worse players so naturally the Braves will win more games etc. Which may be true to some extent. But I guess in the bigger picture the whole idea of "team identity" is true to a large degree on an organizational and practical level just in the sense of like if the team identifies as a "winning team" or "team that always makes the post season" then they usually will live up to that, either by the FO signing the right players to make the team better or the current players stepping up, etc.

It's why teams like the Yankees and Dodgers and Braves and Cardinals(not this season) and Astros and Rays are usually always winning and making the playoffs more often than not, it's like they have created this perception and identity as winning teams and usually every year its the same result - making the post season.

And actually we are seeing it currently happening with the Pirates, who somehow and on some level is changing their own perception of themselves and are playing like a dominate team. Will it last all year? Only time will tell, but if they keep on this path, the playoffs are going to look very different than what we're used to seeing.

Marlins on the other hand, I feel like have most of their history had this reputation and team identity of something like "Scraggly group of guys who will play hard but never quite good enough to make the playoff."

But all this definitely starts at the top, the whole idea of creating a winning culture. That's what happened in the 1997 season. And that's what Jack McKeon was able to do in 2003, he was able to make those group of players on some level identify as a winning team.

I feel like in 2012 with opening the new stadium and all of the excitement they almost came close with changing the culture and team concept but of course that fizzled out fast. 2017 was probably the last time that they were getting close to changing things finally. But of course, new ownership comes in and now they identify as "Work in progress".

Actually I just had a insight in writing all that down. I feel like the Marlins team identity for most of their history has been "We're a work in progress!"

The problem with that is then that is all they will ever live up to, as has been the case for most of their history. Things won't change until they start to identify as a winning team. Wayne Huizenga was able to do it in 1997 by spending whatever it took to make it happen. Jack McKeon was able to do it in 2003 with that group of guys, who were talented, not as much as the 97 team, but just enough that McKeon was able to get them there.

 

Nothing is going change permanently until the Marlins start to identify as a "winning team". But not just a winning team but also a team that has this concept of themselves as "We're the Marlins, we can play with the best of the best and win!" Just typing that feels so unnatural. 😂

But the point is that the moment they can, as an organization, change their self concept and identity from "We're a work in progress" to "We're a winning team and can beat and dominate any other team we play" and as an organization be willing to spend the money to sign the right players and get the pieces they need then that will be the time when they will start making the playoffs in consecutive seasons and so on and so forth.

Problem is who knows when that will happen?

It always seems like the FO (or more accurately, ownership) isn't willing to make those last couple of moves that WOULD put us into perennial contention.  Signing Correa changes a lot and helps show that we're serious.  It probably still wouldn't have been enough on its own, but shows we mean business.  Alas, we're headed for another meh season.

19 hours ago, SirFishFan said:

Top 8 least dominant pitchers in Marlins history:

1. Robert Dugger

2. Jordan Yamamoto

3. Sean Nolin

4. Johan Quesada 

5. Adam Conley

6. Wei-Yin Chen

7. Ureña

8. Anthony Bass

 

Marlins top 8 most dominant pitchers:

1. Jose

2. Beckett

3. Kevin Brown

4. Josh Johnson

5. Sandy Alcantara

6. Willians Astudillo

7. Dontrelle Willis

8. Jacob Stallings

Beckett is too high, in my opinion. I love him and he was definitely phenomenal in the 2003 postseason, but he was never as dominant as Jose, JJ, Sandy or Brown.

I actually think Beckett was pretty disappointing, all things considered. Very good pitcher, but never became the bona fide ace everyone pretty much thought he would become after his performance in the 2003 World Series.

It's something you just would never know …

7 minutes ago, TaiwanMarlins said:

It's something you just would never know …

Two things.

1 - Royals suck as much as Oakland this year.

2 - Since Oakland is so bad, Bleday is going to get a bunch of pitches to hit since teams are just going to work on getting outs. He's going to hit 25 homers this year because of that.

12 minutes ago, Michael said:

Two things.

1 - Royals suck as much as Oakland this year.

2 - Since Oakland is so bad, Bleday is going to get a bunch of pitches to hit since teams are just going to work on getting outs. He's going to hit 25 homers this year because of that.

Wouldn't that have been the case with the Marlins last year also?  

Maybe he's just breaking out?  

31 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

Wouldn't that have been the case with the Marlins last year also?  

Maybe he's just breaking out?  

We weren't *that* bad. Bad, yes, but A's are on a historically bad pace.

15 hours ago, TaiwanMarlins said:

It's something you just would never know …

That's historical Marlins