The Fire Don Mattingly Thread

[Michael]

Just now, Das Texan said:

WHAT RELIEF PITCHER ARE YOU CALLING UP????

I believe @FishFry meant demotion within the bullpen itself (IE - take Anthony Bass out of higher leverage roles), not necessarily demotion to AAA. Shuffle the deck within the bullpen, so to speak.

[Das Texan]

1 minute ago, Michael said:

I believe @FishFry meant demotion within the bullpen itself (IE - take Anthony Bass out of higher leverage roles), not necessarily demotion to AAA. Shuffle the deck within the bullpen, so to speak.

You can only shuffle the same cards so much. 

This is a Don Mattingly has always sucked a bullpen management issue.  Why is anyone actually surprised Mattingly sucks when it comes to managing a bullpen when he has proven that he is unable to do so for what?  10 years?

[Erick]

2 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

You can only shuffle the same cards so much. 

This is a Don Mattingly has always sucked a bullpen management issue.  Why is anyone actually surprised Mattingly sucks when it comes to managing a bullpen when he has proven that he is unable to do so for what?  10 years?

No, this is a Kim Ng built a bullpen with average stuff issue. That’s why “you can only shuffle the same cards so much.” The shuffling is irrelevant because the pieces put together by the GM are underwhelming.

[Michael]

3 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

You can only shuffle the same cards so much. 

This is a Don Mattingly has always sucked a bullpen management issue.  Why is anyone actually surprised Mattingly sucks when it comes to managing a bullpen when he has proven that he is unable to do so for what?  10 years?

I agree with that. Was only pointing to (what I believe is) FishFry's point.

[Das Texan]

Just now, Erick said:

No, this is a Kim Ng built a bullpen with average stuff issue. That’s why “you can only shuffle the same cards so much.” The shuffling is irrelevant because the pieces put together by the GM are underwhelming.

*shrugs*

I thought the Bass signing was fairly decent given the budget restraints.

I think the front office felt they had a fairly decent bullpen going into Spring Training.  Bullpens are fickle.  

They are also the easiest thing to quickly rebuild and the most difficult at the same time.

Have you seen the bullpens of the majority of MLB teams?

[ZfromCIS]

I don’t really have a problem with the pen. I had a problem with the “rebuild” to begin with. Adding Floro and Bass were very nice but they definitely could’ve brought back Kintzler and Boxberger instead of Curtiss and Pop(yuck). All for what? To save 2 mil? Even though you really would’ve had a deep pen? Bender is one keeping it just above average if you ask me.

[Erick]

12 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

*shrugs*

I thought the Bass signing was fairly decent given the budget restraints.

I think the front office felt they had a fairly decent bullpen going into Spring Training.  Bullpens are fickle.  

They are also the easiest thing to quickly rebuild and the most difficult at the same time.

Have you seen the bullpens of the majority of MLB teams?

I think every arm in our bullpen is “fairly decent,” but that’s the problem. It’s not a bullpen with much of a ceiling. Anthony Bender, for example, stands out because of stuff.

Guys like Bass and Floro are “fairly decent,” but that shouldn’t be the 8th/9th inning guys.

Also, you can get arms with good stuff at a cheap price these days.

Compare the stuff of a Bass/Floro to even a Giovanny Gallegos for example. A lot of our guys in the pen don’t have a dominant offspeed pitch to put hitters away. We prioritized strike throwers (which is fine), but good bullpens have more swing & miss ability especially in this era where the opposing team gets a runner at 2B once extra innings begin. 

Hopefully some of the surplus of starters we have in the minors end up in our pen some day. 

[ZfromCIS]

3 minutes ago, Erick said:

I think every arm in our bullpen is “fairly decent,” but that’s the problem. It’s not a bullpen with much of a ceiling. Anthony Bender, for example, stands out because of stuff.

Guys like Bass and Floro are “fairly decent,” but that shouldn’t be the 8th/9th inning guys.

Also, you can get arms with good stuff at a cheap price these days.

Compare the stuff of a Bass/Floro to even a Giovanny Gallegos for example. A lot of our guys in the pen don’t have a dominant offspeed pitch to put hitters away. We prioritized strike throwers (which is fine), but good bullpens have more swing & miss ability especially in this era where the opposing team gets a runner at 2B once extra innings begin. 

Hopefully some of the surplus of starters we have in the minors end up in our pen some day. 

You’re not going to find that available on a market. The type of stuff you’re talking about are 9/10 homegrown guys. Bender was an anomaly.

[Das Texan]

5 minutes ago, ZfromCIS said:

I don’t really have a problem with the pen. I had a problem with the “rebuild” to begin with. Adding Floro and Bass were very nice but they definitely could’ve brought back Kintzler and Boxberger instead of Curtiss and Pop(yuck). All for what? To save 2 mil? Even though you really would’ve had a deep pen? Bender is one keeping it just above average if you ask me.

Well if they brought back Kintzler with the way he has pitched in 2021 you'd be bitching like crazy that they brought him back. 

[Das Texan]

6 minutes ago, Erick said:

I think every arm in our bullpen is “fairly decent,” but that’s the problem. It’s not a bullpen with much of a ceiling. Anthony Bender, for example, stands out because of stuff.

Guys like Bass and Floro are “fairly decent,” but that shouldn’t be the 8th/9th inning guys.

Also, you can get arms with good stuff at a cheap price these days.

Compare the stuff of a Bass/Floro to even a Giovanny Gallegos for example. A lot of our guys in the pen don’t have a dominant offspeed pitch to put hitters away. We prioritized strike throwers (which is fine), but good bullpens have more swing & miss ability especially in this era where the opposing team gets a runner at 2B once extra innings begin. 

Hopefully some of the surplus of starters we have in the minors end up in our pen some day. 

Can't really blame Ng though when guys like a Gallegos in the Cardinals pen was the result of scouting the Yankee system and then developing him further when he got here.  She was not going to have the ability to know fully what the Marlins system had and what the other teams had and were available in deals that made sense.  Granted in the Gallegos case they moved on from Voit (who has become damn good) because the Cardinal scouting department sucks at developing hitters, but are really good at developing pitchers.

Genesis Cabrera is the same way, even though he is frustrating when he gets wild.

Same with an Anthony Reyes.

You cant expect a new GM to come in and be able to turn what they have into pixie dust.  You have to give the new GM a few years to get the system the way they want it.

With Jeter/Denbo probably the final decision makers, you get what you have been seeing.  

For guys that are more than 'fairly decent' you have to either a) develop those guys or b) pay for those guys

Marlins should be grooming Max Meyer for that role honestly, and probably a few others.

[Erick]

6 minutes ago, ZfromCIS said:

You’re not going to find that available on a market. The type of stuff you’re talking about are 9/10 homegrown guys. Bender was an anomaly.

Pop has good stuff too. I don’t mind the gamble on him/keeping him to see what happens for that reasons.

Their strategy to building this bullpen was different from what other teams try to do in the backend of the bullpen is what I’m trying to say. I understand your point about a lot of arms having to be homegrown though. 

[Das Texan]

2 minutes ago, Erick said:

Pop has good stuff too. I don’t mind the gamble on him/keeping him to see what happens for that reasons.

Their strategy to building this bullpen was different from what other teams try to do in the backend of the bullpen is what I’m trying to say. I understand your point about a lot of arms having to be homegrown though. 

Like i said, I believe they feel they had a fairly good pen going into the season.

It requires a manager to know how to effectively manage a bullpen though to get the most out of the mix the Marlins have though it seems.

Mattingly is probably the worst manager you can have for a bullpen that doesnt have guys that have 'obvious' roles, tbh. 

[rmc523]

9 hours ago, Das Texan said:

So who are you DFA'ing and why.  

Though reasoning and ability to eat salary for anyone making more than MLB minimum is a requirement as well.

Seriously, looking at this mess of a roster, I"m not exactly sure what you want Ng to do.

She had no money to spend in her first offseason.

She had no idea of what she really had in her system, so making trades would be hit or miss.

You have certain members of the front office above her that are putting their hands into the collective cookie jar and essentially overriding her.

The blame end of day lies on Jeter and ownership.

1. for not giving a real working budget

2. for being too meddling.

 

Seriously, Jeter is just like Loria in the meddling.  Fact.   Actually maybe worse in that he does it constantly.  At least Loria would go through periods when he would be less meddling. 

We could've DFAd guys like Sierra or Harrison to call up Sanchez and wouldn't have missed much at all outside of a lot of Ks and horrible baserunning.

4 hours ago, SilverBullet said:

Maybe this is a bit of a different take but all of you are upset at a collaborative front office structure and I'm over here thinking it might be better for our team?

Yes I know the too many cooks in the kitchen argument but a collaborative front office covers inexperience of both Jeter and Ng. Maybe giving total control to Ng, or anyone else for that matter, wouldn't be the right move for this organization now?

I'm more wondering why 6 adults are all being such slow steppers. I'd expect a collaborative front office to be making more moves, not less. The lack of urgency from the whole group is dumbfounding. 

This also makes me think the division of power isn't equal, someone is overriding everyone else because how in the world are all those people in agreement that Jesus Sanchez shouldn't be up or that we shouldn't be more proactive in improving the roster right now. 

My point is, arm side run, that this means there is a team of people to blame who are apparently all idiots instead of just one and the way the last month or more has gone I'm just shocked that this isn't the doing of one stubborn person who has total control. 

I don't necessarily mind a collective/collaborative effort for decision making, as it's good to have input from different sources.  But if it winds up crippling decision making (i.e. 3 want move A, 3 want move B, so they "wait and see" and do neither), that's not a good thing.

[Das Texan]

DFA'ing Sierra and/or Harrison is an admission that Denbo was wrong about those players. 

[ZfromCIS]

1 hour ago, Das Texan said:

Well if they brought back Kintzler with the way he has pitched in 2021 you'd be bitching like crazy that they brought him back. 

Very true but there would’ve been continuity and he probably would’ve pitched with comfort.

[ZfromCIS]

10 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

DFA'ing Sierra and/or Harrison is an admission that Denbo was wrong about those players. 

Sierra doesn’t need to be DFA’d. He’s improving. Berti needs to DFA’d. Problem is that we’re planning to play with 6 Outfielders in the future or at least that’s what it looks like with they way we built our system.

[Italian Marlins Fan]

1 hour ago, Das Texan said:

Sherman appears to have ceded the public role of ownership to Jeter for all intents and purposes. 

I’m assuming this is how it is in private as well then. That’s why it’s hard to trust the Marlins FO. Sherman is like this mythical figure in some cave somewhere who just hides and barely answers any questions. I want to hear some accountability on his part, instead of blaming past ownership for his own failures. Obviously, Loria and Samson were pretty terrible, never cared about the MILB system, and made quick irrational decisions that in some cases would hurt the ball club (look at trading Luis Castillo or Chris Paddack). Traded 2 young controllable pitchers for some bad rentals. But I don’t want to sit here and act like this new ownership group is all sunshine’s and rainbows. I will always support the Marlins, but in my opinion,  I can tell many of my fellow Marlin fans are frustrated. This is technically fourth year of the rebuild. We all know this team should be better. Yes, COVID has altered the timeline maybe a bit, but last place in year four of this? I’m predicting soon if the ship is not steered properly by July, I could see Mattingly out. And firing Mattingly could potentially be possible PR for Jeter because a lot of people have accused him of trying to run this team like the Yankees. Idk a lot of thoughts here, but I’m very curious to see what the rest of this season, and the off-season has in store. Will the Marlins spend any meaningful money in the off-season? I saw another member said Marlins could have had Tyler Naquin for less money than Duvall, and Tyler has been better. For a low budget team like the Marlins, that’s on the analytics and scouting department by not being able to identify the right talent for that value or a little less of that value. 

[Michael]

11 minutes ago, ZfromCIS said:

Sierra doesn’t need to be DFA’d. He’s improving. 

Is he?

[Erick]

3 minutes ago, Michael said:

Is he?

Yes. Just this season alone, he learned how to play 2B. Getting better and better every year.

[Admin]

24 minutes ago, ZfromCIS said:

Sierra doesn’t need to be DFA’d. He’s improving. Berti needs to DFA’d

If I had to choose one to DFA, it'd be Sierra and that is without even needing to think about it.

[Erick]

If we’re talking about DFA’s, my #1 candidate is definitely Lewis Brinson. A 27-year old “prospect” who can’t even reach the Mendoza Line after 900 big league plate appearances.

 

 

“But, hey, let’s not talk extension with Starling and give Sweet Lew another chance next season. Did you see what he did in Spring Training?”

-The front office probably

[rmc523]

7 minutes ago, Erick said:

If we’re talking about DFA’s, my #1 candidate is definitely Lewis Brinson. A 27-year old “prospect” who can’t even reach the Mendoza Line after 900 big league plate appearances.

 

 

“But, hey, let’s not talk extension with Starling and give Sweet Lew another chance next season. Did you see what he did in Spring Training?”

-The front office probably

Yup, I prioritized Sierra/Harrison on my DFA list over Brinson, as at least Brinson had actually started getting a couple hits here and there.  The other two have just been lost.  Brinson is a close 3rd for me.

[SongInTheAir]

Something I think is weird about this front office (which was also a hallmark of the previous one) is that they don't target pitchers with swing and miss stuff. It's clear with the bullpen guys (Yimi, Floro, and Bass would all be middle relievers on most good teams) but it's also something you see in the starting rotation. Sandy Alcantara has developed into a guy who gets more swings and misses, but his game is ground balls. Pablo Lopez has started getting more Ks recently, but he's not a huge strikeout guy either. Guys who throw strikes are great because they don't walk guys and give up free base runners, but sometimes (especially with the atrocious extra inning rules) you need a guy who can strike someone out. I mean, with a runner on second base and no outs, with a guy like Yimi pitching? There's almost no way the guy doesn't score. The last kind of pitcher you want in late game situations is a fly ball guy who can't make anyone swing and miss.

[Daddy Dix]

7 minutes ago, SongInTheAir said:

Something I think is weird about this front office (which was also a hallmark of the previous one) is that they don't target pitchers with swing and miss stuff. It's clear with the bullpen guys (Yimi, Floro, and Bass would all be middle relievers on most good teams) but it's also something you see in the starting rotation. Sandy Alcantara has developed into a guy who gets more swings and misses, but his game is ground balls. Pablo Lopez has started getting more Ks recently, but he's not a huge strikeout guy either. Guys who throw strikes are great because they don't walk guys and give up free base runners, but sometimes (especially with the atrocious extra inning rules) you need a guy who can strike someone out. I mean, with a runner on second base and no outs, with a guy like Yimi pitching? There's almost no way the guy doesn't score. The last kind of pitcher you want in late game situations is a fly ball guy who can't make anyone swing and miss.

that one inning from Bleier tho

[Das Texan]

1 hour ago, ZfromCIS said:

Sierra doesn’t need to be DFA’d. He’s improving. Berti needs to DFA’d. Problem is that we’re planning to play with 6 Outfielders in the future or at least that’s what it looks like with they way we built our system.

What infielder is coming up to replace Berti? Or being signed.

The depth is already so fucking bad in the infield, you need warm bodies!