anotherrealfan

The Orange Bowl only meant something to me as a football stadium. Now that is over so JUST BLOW THE DAMN PLACE UP and build something we can all be proud of. If you want to remember the OB, then save money and don't put bathrooms in the new stadium. I will be out of town on the 10th, but I want that vote to go through and finally, finally, guarantee baseball for a long time.

I can't stand Michael Putney... Miami Herald, January 2nd COUNTY FINANCES Questions remain about the new ballpark BY MICHAEL PUTNEY Of the many file folders on my desk, the largest, oldest and most vexing is the one marked ''Marlins Stadium.'' I hauled it out and thumbed through it in preparation for the Miami-Dade Commission meeting on Thursday, Jan. 10, when the latest in a string of stadium financing plans will be discussed -- and probably approved. Nevertheless, the question for commissioners and the mayor remains: Should it be? ? Should half a billion dollars, most of it public money, be invested in a sports facility that financially benefits a private corporate enterprise? ? Should $370 million in taxpayers' dollars be spent on a facility that would have no mass transit, aside from buses, or adequate parking, beyond a proposed 6,000-space parking garage? ? Should that much money be spent on a nondescript neighborhood that offers no nearby bars, clubs, restaurants or shopping to make a night or afternoon at a ballgame a fuller experience? ? Should a stadium be built at the Orange Bowl site merely because the city of Miami owns the land and can't afford to buy any other land downtown, where a stadium might make sense? ? Should the city of Miami and Miami-Dade County pony up their share of stadium money before the Marlins have guaranteed theirs? ? Where would the Marlins get $155 milllion in ''up front'' money? And even if they can, does Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria have deep enough pockets to pay for stadium cost overruns, as he has promised to do? Or could he cut corners on design and materials to bring it in on budget? Yep, a bunch of tough questions, and I don't pretend to have the answers. I just fear the questions may not be asked when the stadium train rumbles through the commission chamber next Thursday. The engineers are Mayors Carlos Alvarez and Manny Diaz, both longtime supporters of a new baseball stadium. Their usual argument in favor is that Miami can't be a major-league city without Major League Baseball played in a ''world class'' stadium. That's an argument, however, that evaporates under close scrutiny. We already are a major city thanks to our airport and seaport, the export/import companies that use them and the international banks and investment firms that do business here. I'd argue that South Beach, the Miami Book Fair International and Art Basel Miami Beach do more to confirm our big-league status than the Marlins. Still, professional baseball is a nice amenity for any city, and it's better when played in a comfortable, accessible, affordable stadium. Even Joe Robbie Stadium (forgive me, I've been here a long time) can provide an excellent baseball experience. A hot dog and a few brews while watching a pitching duel or hit-fest on a summer night is a lot of fun, and I'd be disappointed if it weren't there. But should taxpayers for the next few decades subsidize that day or night at the ballpark, even using tourist bed-tax dollars whose spending purposes are limited? That's what county commissioners and the mayor must decide next week. I trust they will answer all the questions I've posed -- plus many of their own -- before they vote. A running out of time on the clock editorial rehashing all the same questions that we have been discussing for the longest time on this board. Maybe we should look into a plagiarism charge. What is the purpose of this editorial at this time in the process and what is Putney doing. An editorial should provide new insight, commentary and thoughtful discussion-not a cheap rerun of old questions and issues. It is as if Putney had to write an article to meet a deadline, had too much to drink on New Years eve and just took the easy, cheap way out. And oh yea, as much as I am for diverse choices in a city, while the Art Basel and the Book Fair are nice, I am not sure I would argue that those events are what really make us a major league city. By themselves, they serve fewer people and a much smaller section of the population than a successful baseball team. Maybe I aint got no culture, but I doubt the Art Fair is well known outside S. Florida to anyone but rich art owners.

Jason Wood pinch hit HR off Jenks I felt like making fun of anyone watching a replay of a June game, but I wouldn't, but I felt like it, until you mentioned what happened. I was a work listening on the radio and going crazy when Woody hit the HR. Now, I would like to see the last few innings again.

I'm very disappointed to see Jim Mecir called "old trash". You must be thinking of someone else. Not only was his line good the year he was here (you take one inning in SD out of an entire years worth of stats and he has a 2.08 ERA for the Marlins, as it was he was 3.12 w/2 homeruns the whole year and none at home), he had to be one of the gutsiest guys to ever play the game with two club feet that 99 other guys would have used as reason to not even try to play the game. The man could barely walk but that screwball... ...Wow I apologize for the term. No one, not even old players should be called bad things. And he certainly had to overcome a great deal, but once they are out on the field, no player wants to be judged on how well they do given their limitations, just their performance. I guess his numbers were better than my perception because he went deep into the count and sometimes got seriously squeezed by the umps. I recall a lot of stomach turning moments with him and the bullpen that year.

Moehler=Mecir=Manzanillo (he the user of enhancement drugs)=whatever old trash. Please say not so.

I swear to God there was no sarcasm implied or meant. Honestly. All I did was wish you a Merry Christmas. We disagree often but I was trying to be nice because of the holiday. He could be Jewish. You were being insensitive. I'm soooooo ashamed :notworthy , how could I have been so insensitive? You're right Pengy. The newer and all warm and fuzzy 03 :thumbup

We honestly do not have 5 arms that are better than Livan right now, so I think signing Livan could make sense. I understand the cry of "we need to groom the young pitching," but we aren't going to throw anyone to the wolves. Livan could fit what we are trying to do short term. And maybe help teach the youngsters how to throw that sick 60 mph changeup and that it is not all about throwing as hard as you can.

Terrible news. There were metal detectors and searches being done apparently, so clearly the guy had an insider help him. That country is so unstable right now. What country where there are islamic extremists isn't unstable. It is their plan, to create fear and instability everywhere and deaths to innocents, because anyone who does not agree with their sickness is not an innocent, but a justifiable target.

Olivo owned the Royals. They could not get him out-so they think he is the next Johnny Bench

My guess is that things are not quite as simple, cut and dried, as the memo would suggest. Hopefully, it's not going to be a problem, and there's no cause for any one to lose sleep. In the meantime, it sure would be nice to hear something from Loria. Why would you hear from him, except to kill the whole thing. I hope he won't kill the whole thing by Jan 10. Watch for Loria to make some kind of "unacceptable" demand, and kill the project. At least then MLB execs will see it isn't the local politicos but Marlins brass that is responsible for the stadium delays. May as well blame the local fan base. If we would have been showing the local and state politicians we support baseball here those close votes for the tax rebates probably would have passed and ground would have been broken long ago. :lol I like how you think it's that simple I don't think it's that simple. I'm just not so self centered as to think as a fan base we don't have something to do with alot of the disappointments in the past. And one or two of those votes were real close. Imagine if we were putting around 30K in the seats. I do believe the deal would have been done. And I don't. Because if you recall, different legislators had different takes on this. It was damned if you do and damned if you don't. When the Marlins were not spending money and trying to put a good product on the field, the talk was that why give money for such a team who no one would support anyway. When money was spent to improve the product and there was a rise in attendance, the politicos were saying that if the team can afford to give Delgado $52 mill to play baseball, then they must have plenty of money and do not a $30 mill. dollar rebate. Bob, you and I are different, but given how things have been run for 10 years, even with the 3 years of competitive basball, 30,000 average attendance would not happen in most cities. Really, I do not know why you always want to place most of the blame on the fans. On balance, that is not where is mostly belongs.

Except the article states, "If an interested suitor is willing to overpay for a year's worth of Prior, it might be tempting enough for him to look beyond California. " Now, I am all for paying fair value for a good free agent, but to "overpay" for a risk is not what we do and we shouldn't do.

If true, sucks just a few more days... no cause for concern. in fact, this is probably a good thing... these negotiations have been moving extremely fast. all sides need to make sure that they do this right. its not like writing a contract for a 500 million dollar baseball stadium is an easy thing to do. we've waited for 8 years, two more weeks isnt gonna kill us. probably not :swoon but maybe

How did you define efficiency? Number of wins? If so, clearly a payroll of $10M which gets you to 70 wins is going to be more "efficient" than a payroll of $100M which gets you 90 wins. Did you account for being in the playoff race, making the postseason, winning a series, and ultimately winning the WS? I didn't define it by number of wins for the very reason you listed. Obviously, the Marlins will always be the most efficient team in baseball (with their current payroll) if you go by Wins/Payroll. I came up with a definition that is more closely related to the standard economic idea of marginal cost equalling marginal revenue. Basically, a team's acquisition is efficient if the % of payroll going to said player equals the % of team wins that can be attributed to that player's performance. I altered it to also distribute surpluses accrued from the performance of cost controlled talent (relative to their salary) towards free agent signings so that a team isn't benefitted by spending below it's payroll. Not knocking this, you worked hard on the concept and I understand because my daughter has a masters in sports mgt and had to create similar models. Yet, efficiency does not necessarily translate into enough wins and fan support. It's still a game played on the field and emotion goes into it that can't be built into a financial model. Again, there is value to what you did and no criticism.

Only Juan Pierre has a worse arm

I am not a Dolphin fan but since Wayne has screwed us Marlins fans over big time since 1997 I enjoyed the his football teams declines , and I hope it continues because Wayne is the devil As a Marlins fan first, I agree that Wayne was a smart man who took bad advice after the 97 title. This snowball never stopped rolling, just slowed down a bit. And I agree with marlins03 on most of what he says, yes I do, and that the late phone call killed the stadium rebate a few years ago, just so he could milk the franchise a few more years. Wayne had a chance with this community to really have something special. 75000 at a pep rally after the title, season tix would have gone through the roof etc, but Wayne really hated working with the strong baseball union and with the other owners that he had disdain for. And further, my AutoNation stock has been a flat,stagnant investment that I should have dumped long ago. Any buyer will most likely be locked in to any signed agreements in place. I would hope that the UM has protection in their deal and all the promises are reduced to writing, in specific detail, which I am mostly confident, they are. Wayne may not have had the success he hoped for, but one thing I see with him is that if he is involved, he does not cut corners. If he can't try to do it right, he won't want to do it. Bad decisions, but not for an unwillingness to try.

Flipper, you can't train a marlin. Oh, yea, a real retractable roof and air conditioning for the afternoon games-so as not to die or worse. Skip the rag top.

I just have a hard time believing "everybody" was on something, as per the report. Pretty broad brush to use to taint every single player on the team.

They compromised to save money on the Miami Arena, and look what happened. I always believe that for any money spent on a long term investment, doing it right will always be better, and often less costly in the long run.

Somebody help me here. In the past, was it the City who gave problems approving the stadium deal or was it the County? B/c if it was the City who gave problems in the past, then we are in good shape come Tuesday. If it was the County, then we are gonna have problems come Tuesday. Miami Dade county has been the better of the two parties but I feel the biggest issues here have been ownership and the state. The Marlins have already agreed, the state is not in the equation, the city has approved, so we're only dealing with the County now. Let's hope the County agrees. Im talking about the last 7-10 years not today. I wouldnt be surprised to see the city, county and team still try and get the state rebate. I agree with you I would be suprised once a deal is in place if they dont get the state rebate every other team has it They should try to get anything they can. It is their obligation to the taxpayers in their area. And if the Rays go for the money, I doubt they will have as much difficulty as we did-but the state better damn well realize how phony they would look if they rubber stamped the rebate to Tampa. Miami Marlins sounds just fine. Used to watch them at Miami Stadium.

yay? perfect response

The next step is the County Commission vote next Tuesday. If that vote passes, (and I'm reading things correctly) then we're a Marlins press conference away from a new stadium. The county has been behind the stadium issue-but we have not heard a "yes" from the Marlins. I am cautiously neutral but something HAS to happen soon.

Above, where the guy from 1998-2001 said virtually all of the pitchers were on it. So that must include, Beckett, too. (He made it up at the end of 2001). Virtually all were on steroids, greenies, or weed, it doesn't say virtually all were on steroids. We all know AJ Burnett smoked weed. I don't think Penny or Beckett did it. What was in McKeon's stogies?

Wonderful, more garbage in middle relief. Miller did a good job last year. Recall how often he came in to clean up someone else's mess. I am happy with this.

From what I was told and there may a myriad of other issues above or below this on the priority chart, as I've said before, the absence of a parking garage in the newest proposal is a real $$$ issue for the Marlins for number of reasons. It isn't like the $$$ isn't there to get it built, there is no will to do. If you have no intention or desire of playing at the Orange Bowl why not say so as opposed to bargining in bad faith . If the Marlins dont want to be at the Orange Bowl than no deal will be good enough . If the prinicipal issue is a lack of a parking garage that seems like something that could easily be resolved . This really is starting too look like both sides dont want to make a deal. Good faith negotiating seems to have been gone a long time ago, if it ever was to begin with. Neither side likes each other, nor does it seems like they trust each other. I believe the City and County do not want to lose a major league team, but the numbers are hard to deal with. The Marlins feel squeezed by time constraints and a lack of a suitable alternative. But no one wants to cave in to the pressure.

I've come to the conclusion that six or seven of you represent the lunatic fringe of the hate Loria crowd and it's fruitless to argue/debate/whatever subjects about which you know nothing or where the word "truth" is too alien a concept for you all to understand. If you even had a cursory understanding of accounting, partnerships and that every professional sports franchise is audited by the IRS yearly you would understand why this mass hysteria is just that. There is zero evidence anything you guys repeat day after day after day is true but go ahead, be my guest...continue. And when you find out who it was on that grassy knoll who shot JFK post that too. Aww cmon, whether the IRS (nice of you to capitalize this,shows proper respect for our civil servants) audits the books or not has absolutely nothing, nothing to do with the position that owner is reaping profits that maybe he should be putting back into the organization. I have seen many taking shots at the lack of spending, how the organization is run etc, but I do not recall anyone saying (ok I will use his name) Loria is breaking any tax laws or failing to report income or taking inappropriate or illegal deductions. So, again, you formulate your words to have an impact but often they land like a feather on grass. He could still be a terrible owner to many, or the best owner in the world, but why would an IRS audit have anything to do with that-except it makes good window dressing.