2 hours ago, Das Texan said:

The Marlins appearing to be ok with what they have on the roster for CF is either them blowing smoke up everyones ass, them being clueless, or them trying desperately behind the scenes to acquire a real CF for the scraps they are offering and hoping someone eventually bites.

Just not sure anyone is biting at taking the Marlins lesser scraps when there is no urgency to make a deal.   

Laureano would appear to be the 'cheapest' and Oakland has said to this point, nah we are good with whatever crap the Marlins are offering.

It's insane.

How do extend Sandy, acquire multiple legitimate luxury upgrades with Garcia (over DLC/Bleday/Burdick), Soler (over Cooper/Lewin), Stallings (Alfaro), and Wendle (Berti/Devers/Isan), make a few quiet and nice under the radar moves like extend Rojas, Bleier, and trade for Head, and completely ignore the # 1 on the field priority..... and retain legitimately 7-8 premium prospects who won't sniff much of the roster this year (and many next) And many of those are pitchers and the rotation is full without Cabrera right now. You just spent A LOT of money (over $125m in free agents + Sandy) to not finish the job?

Isn't there a Plan A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I J, and K(iermaier) plan here and how has none of them happened? They still have till opening day so to answer your question, I vote POSTURING, but still.

They get the last laugh if Garcia and Sanchez are sold enough and it gets them to June without it having a big impact, but it's hard to fathom they can't part with some core prospects for a guy with 4 years of control, who can likely be extended for 7 years. 

At least get someone who will beat out DLC for the team who can play defense (which will be very much needed), and I don't mean DeShields or Quinn. That being said, I believe rosters are going to be 27-28 guys to start the year so maybe the idea is stashing an extra defensive CF on the bench and having that bail them out for a month. Actually, I just thought of that and that's what they are going to do. Pray they outhit people and swap in a defender 6th/7th inning with the extra roster spot. That's their bailout to see if this Garcia/Sanchez situation works. That punts them a month with an extra roster spot to pray.

This is a C- offseason until they get a legitimate CF but could scale very quickly to an A if they get the right guy. I'm not sure what to think if they don't get one. It's like the Dolphins not signing a T. Oh wait.

9 hours ago, hovertical said:

Man I completely forgot Devers is on the team. 

I’m excited to see what he can bring , he was starting to hit a bit better before he got hurt

5 hours ago, SonOfJack said:

 

So then deal one of Watson or Meyer.  Not really that hard. 

This whole well lets just give them what we dont want doesnt exactly work when the other team holds all the cards and has literally zero reason to make a deal.

5 hours ago, SonOfJack said:

 

Who cares really?

So they have a little argument over how much he makes this year.  

They still really have no reason to trade him at this point.  He puts up another year like this past year and his trade value honestly probably goes up. 

Again, this is what I feel so many dont get.  You have to MAKE the Pirates pull the trigger.  You dont include a prized prospect they covet and why exactly are they pulling that trigger?  

The Pirates actually have a really nice farm system, by the time they start matriculating, Reynolds is still on this team via his current level of control.

Now if you were to actually make them an offer they cant refuse....then they will do it.  But you have to actually MAKE said offer and stop hoarding prospects for the sake of hoarding prospects.  

Its just unimaginable how the biggest issue this team had going into the offseason (which I assume management was fully aware of) is still an issue what?  2 weeks from Opening Day?  

11 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

So then deal one of Watson or Meyer.  Not really that hard. 

This whole well lets just give them what we dont want doesnt exactly work when the other team holds all the cards and has literally zero reason to make a deal.

Everyone knows it's a trade that Marlins begging Pirates and not Pirates begging Marlins. 

8 hours ago, Das Texan said:

Who cares really?

So they have a little argument over how much he makes this year.  

They still really have no reason to trade him at this point.  He puts up another year like this past year and his trade value honestly probably goes up. 

Again, this is what I feel so many dont get.  You have to MAKE the Pirates pull the trigger.  You dont include a prized prospect they covet and why exactly are they pulling that trigger?  

The Pirates actually have a really nice farm system, by the time they start matriculating, Reynolds is still on this team via his current level of control.

Now if you were to actually make them an offer they cant refuse....then they will do it.  But you have to actually MAKE said offer and stop hoarding prospects for the sake of hoarding prospects.  

Its just unimaginable how the biggest issue this team had going into the offseason (which I assume management was fully aware of) is still an issue what?  2 weeks from Opening Day?  

Pitt does have an excellent farm. It's important to see their vision. Long term (end of 2023-24), they are something like this (on paper):

C - Davis, Rodriguez
1B - _______
2B - Gonzales, plus variety of 45/40+ guys
SS - Cruz (if he stays there), Peguero
3B - Hayes
CF - Reynolds, and they have two FV45 types (Swaggerty, Frazier)
OF - _______ (but leftovers from above)

Top End SP - _______ and __________
Mid-SP - Brubaker, Preister, Contreras, multiple other FV45/40 Types
Bullpen - Bednar, old friend Thompson, Wilson, Keller, Howard, and (leftovers from above and variety FV40 types)

Their top 6 needs are clear - they need (1) top end SP, (2) More top end SP, (3) probably another SS/2B type (as Cruz may outgrow and move somewhere like corner OF or DH), and generally, (4) OF depth and maybe this moves to # 3 if they move Reynolds, but could lower if Cruz moves, (5) more SP as you can never have enough, and (6) 1B/DH bats, but easier to get them in FA so deprioritized.

Reynolds works into their contending plan for sure with 4 years of control - they are just 2 years (and getting 2 major SP cough thank god for Sandy and Rogers) behind the Marlins here. They too will have payroll to spend eventually. Plus, they have a top 5 pick this year and can take a college player. I imagine they take best available college 1B/OF/SP, with their hope a SP makes the most sense there, and are planning on spending in 2024 and get two major players.

So if you are the Marlins, I think you need to solve 4 of these problems for Pittsburgh for them to move Reynolds. That makes it worth their while, plus they do open up some payroll with Reynolds to theoretically spend on something else so that helps them somewhat.

What do they have to trade?

Two pitchers - Eury/Meyer/Cabrera and Sixto/Eder/Fulton. It's going to hurt, but Reynolds is great
OF - Bleday/Burdick/Sanchez. Again, it's going to hurt. I think Sanchez makes sneaky sense here with Marlins OF depth. Bleday/Burdick - Reynolds - Garcia absolutely works for 4 seasons and they can deal with it until Bleday/Burdick get to the bigs. Wendle can play a lot of 3B and pop Anderson out.
SS - Watson/Salas/Morisette/Nunez

It's a bananas deal if it's going to happen, so that's why the Marlins have to ask for Bednar also, and maybe they chuck in 1-2 more guys outside the top 15 to make that make sense. I think you identify one untouchable - and it's clearly Watson. You then move on from there.

I think it's something like (1) Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, (2) Sixto/Bleday/Sanchez, (3) Eder/Burdick/Salas, (4) Fulton/Morisette/Nunez, (5) Jerar (some DH hope), (6) DLC (as who cares), and (7) outside top 20 guy.

It's choosing your own adventure there to get them two SP, an OF, and SS. I think that is very hard for them to pass up. I think they'd want whatever SP first, Bleday/Sanchez, Salas, and Fulton as 2-3-4. And that works.

What do we care if this is the team short and long-term). I spy 9 starting pitchers (8 of which have top of the rotation potential...sorry Hernandez), a top 10 bullpen, superstar potential at 2B (Jazz), SS (Watson), CF (Reynolds), and a corner OF slot (Bleday/Sanchez). And..... this team is CHEAP for YEARS. They have excellent 2022 draft picks as well - COLLEGE PLAYER!!!!

Stallings, Fortes (Mack and backup types in pipeline)
Aguilar, Cooper (Lewin in pipeline)
Jazz (I. Lewis, Morisette, Cappe in pipeline)
Rojas, Berti (Watson, Nunez in pipeline)
Anderson/Wendle platoon (_________ in pipeline)
CF Reynolds (______ in pipeline)
C-OF Garcia, Sanchez/Bleday (Burdick in pipeline)
Soler (________ no DH in pipeline, maybe a trickle down)

Sandy, Pablo, Hernandez (Two of Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, and Sixto in pipeline)
Rogers, Luzardo (Eder in pipeline)
Bender, Bednar, Floro, Pop, Head (McCambley and many others in pipeline)
Bleier, Okert (Velez in pipeline)

 

They need to get over this. I'm taking Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, Sanchez/Bleday, Salas, and Fulton off this team and you can't find a weakness (although they do need some 1B/3B, CF, and more SP in the pipeline but that's what the draft and IFA is for. You can't have it all).

 

24 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Pitt does have an excellent farm. It's important to see their vision. Long term (end of 2023-24), they are something like this (on paper):

C - Davis, Rodriguez
1B - _______
2B - Gonzales, plus variety of 45/40+ guys
SS - Cruz (if he stays there), Peguero
3B - Hayes
CF - Reynolds, and they have two FV45 types (Swaggerty, Frazier)
OF - _______ (but leftovers from above)

Top End SP - _______ and __________
Mid-SP - Brubaker, Preister, Contreras, multiple other FV45/40 Types
Bullpen - Bednar, old friend Thompson, Wilson, Keller, Howard, and (leftovers from above and variety FV40 types)

Their top 6 needs are clear - they need (1) top end SP, (2) More top end SP, (3) probably another SS/2B type (as Cruz may outgrow and move somewhere like corner OF or DH), and generally, (4) OF depth and maybe this moves to # 3 if they move Reynolds, but could lower if Cruz moves, (5) more SP as you can never have enough, and (6) 1B/DH bats, but easier to get them in FA so deprioritized.

Reynolds works into their contending plan for sure with 4 years of control - they are just 2 years (and getting 2 major SP cough thank god for Sandy and Rogers) behind the Marlins here. They too will have payroll to spend eventually. Plus, they have a top 5 pick this year and can take a college player. I imagine they take best available college 1B/OF/SP, with their hope a SP makes the most sense there, and are planning on spending in 2024 and get two major players.

So if you are the Marlins, I think you need to solve 4 of these problems for Pittsburgh for them to move Reynolds. That makes it worth their while, plus they do open up some payroll with Reynolds to theoretically spend on something else so that helps them somewhat.

What do they have to trade?

Two pitchers - Eury/Meyer/Cabrera and Sixto/Eder/Fulton. It's going to hurt, but Reynolds is great
OF - Bleday/Burdick/Sanchez. Again, it's going to hurt. I think Sanchez makes sneaky sense here with Marlins OF depth. Bleday/Burdick - Reynolds - Garcia absolutely works for 4 seasons and they can deal with it until Bleday/Burdick get to the bigs. Wendle can play a lot of 3B and pop Anderson out.
SS - Watson/Salas/Morisette/Nunez

It's a bananas deal if it's going to happen, so that's why the Marlins have to ask for Bednar also, and maybe they chuck in 1-2 more guys outside the top 15 to make that make sense. I think you identify one untouchable - and it's clearly Watson. You then move on from there.

I think it's something like (1) Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, (2) Sixto/Bleday/Sanchez, (3) Eder/Burdick/Salas, (4) Fulton/Morisette/Nunez, (5) Jerar (some DH hope), (6) DLC (as who cares), and (7) outside top 20 guy.

It's choosing your own adventure there to get them two SP, an OF, and SS. I think that is very hard for them to pass up. I think they'd want whatever SP first, Bleday/Sanchez, Salas, and Fulton as 2-3-4. And that works.

What do we care if this is the team short and long-term). I spy 9 starting pitchers (8 of which have top of the rotation potential...sorry Hernandez), a top 10 bullpen, superstar potential at 2B (Jazz), SS (Watson), CF (Reynolds), and a corner OF slot (Bleday/Sanchez). And..... this team is CHEAP for YEARS. They have excellent 2022 draft picks as well - COLLEGE PLAYER!!!!

Stallings, Fortes (Mack and backup types in pipeline)
Aguilar, Cooper (Lewin in pipeline)
Jazz (I. Lewis, Morisette, Cappe in pipeline)
Rojas, Berti (Watson, Nunez in pipeline)
Anderson/Wendle platoon (_________ in pipeline)
CF Reynolds (______ in pipeline)
C-OF Garcia, Sanchez/Bleday (Burdick in pipeline)
Soler (________ no DH in pipeline, maybe a trickle down)

Sandy, Pablo, Hernandez (Two of Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, and Sixto in pipeline)
Rogers, Luzardo (Eder in pipeline)
Bender, Bednar, Floro, Pop, Head (McCambley and many others in pipeline)
Bleier, Okert (Velez in pipeline)

 

They need to get over this. I'm taking Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, Sanchez/Bleday, Salas, and Fulton off this team and you can't find a weakness (although they do need some 1B/3B, CF, and more SP in the pipeline but that's what the draft and IFA is for. You can't have it all).

 

@MarlinsLou is really UNBELIEVABLE. 

This team just not determined to trade for a CF.

5 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

This team just not determined to trade for a CF.

They are ... just not at the asking prices.

Which I don't necessarily agree with, overpay if you have to.

45 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Pitt does have an excellent farm. It's important to see their vision. Long term (end of 2023-24), they are something like this (on paper):

C - Davis, Rodriguez
1B - _______
2B - Gonzales, plus variety of 45/40+ guys
SS - Cruz (if he stays there), Peguero
3B - Hayes
CF - Reynolds, and they have two FV45 types (Swaggerty, Frazier)
OF - _______ (but leftovers from above)

Top End SP - _______ and __________
Mid-SP - Brubaker, Preister, Contreras, multiple other FV45/40 Types
Bullpen - Bednar, old friend Thompson, Wilson, Keller, Howard, and (leftovers from above and variety FV40 types)

Their top 6 needs are clear - they need (1) top end SP, (2) More top end SP, (3) probably another SS/2B type (as Cruz may outgrow and move somewhere like corner OF or DH), and generally, (4) OF depth and maybe this moves to # 3 if they move Reynolds, but could lower if Cruz moves, (5) more SP as you can never have enough, and (6) 1B/DH bats, but easier to get them in FA so deprioritized.

Reynolds works into their contending plan for sure with 4 years of control - they are just 2 years (and getting 2 major SP cough thank god for Sandy and Rogers) behind the Marlins here. They too will have payroll to spend eventually. Plus, they have a top 5 pick this year and can take a college player. I imagine they take best available college 1B/OF/SP, with their hope a SP makes the most sense there, and are planning on spending in 2024 and get two major players.

So if you are the Marlins, I think you need to solve 4 of these problems for Pittsburgh for them to move Reynolds. That makes it worth their while, plus they do open up some payroll with Reynolds to theoretically spend on something else so that helps them somewhat.

What do they have to trade?

Two pitchers - Eury/Meyer/Cabrera and Sixto/Eder/Fulton. It's going to hurt, but Reynolds is great
OF - Bleday/Burdick/Sanchez. Again, it's going to hurt. I think Sanchez makes sneaky sense here with Marlins OF depth. Bleday/Burdick - Reynolds - Garcia absolutely works for 4 seasons and they can deal with it until Bleday/Burdick get to the bigs. Wendle can play a lot of 3B and pop Anderson out.
SS - Watson/Salas/Morisette/Nunez

It's a bananas deal if it's going to happen, so that's why the Marlins have to ask for Bednar also, and maybe they chuck in 1-2 more guys outside the top 15 to make that make sense. I think you identify one untouchable - and it's clearly Watson. You then move on from there.

I think it's something like (1) Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, (2) Sixto/Bleday/Sanchez, (3) Eder/Burdick/Salas, (4) Fulton/Morisette/Nunez, (5) Jerar (some DH hope), (6) DLC (as who cares), and (7) outside top 20 guy.

It's choosing your own adventure there to get them two SP, an OF, and SS. I think that is very hard for them to pass up. I think they'd want whatever SP first, Bleday/Sanchez, Salas, and Fulton as 2-3-4. And that works.

What do we care if this is the team short and long-term). I spy 9 starting pitchers (8 of which have top of the rotation potential...sorry Hernandez), a top 10 bullpen, superstar potential at 2B (Jazz), SS (Watson), CF (Reynolds), and a corner OF slot (Bleday/Sanchez). And..... this team is CHEAP for YEARS. They have excellent 2022 draft picks as well - COLLEGE PLAYER!!!!

Stallings, Fortes (Mack and backup types in pipeline)
Aguilar, Cooper (Lewin in pipeline)
Jazz (I. Lewis, Morisette, Cappe in pipeline)
Rojas, Berti (Watson, Nunez in pipeline)
Anderson/Wendle platoon (_________ in pipeline)
CF Reynolds (______ in pipeline)
C-OF Garcia, Sanchez/Bleday (Burdick in pipeline)
Soler (________ no DH in pipeline, maybe a trickle down)

Sandy, Pablo, Hernandez (Two of Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, and Sixto in pipeline)
Rogers, Luzardo (Eder in pipeline)
Bender, Bednar, Floro, Pop, Head (McCambley and many others in pipeline)
Bleier, Okert (Velez in pipeline)

 

They need to get over this. I'm taking Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, Sanchez/Bleday, Salas, and Fulton off this team and you can't find a weakness (although they do need some 1B/3B, CF, and more SP in the pipeline but that's what the draft and IFA is for. You can't have it all).

 

Its almost like they are trying to acquire a big CF and do it without it hurting some.  That's just not how it works.  Maybe in week 1 of the offseason when you are just fishing for deals, but when its time to get down to it, you have to realize that if you actually are serious about acquiring the best CF on the market in theory (the in theory being his market availability and no other better CF being marketed), you have to know it will be painful, but a pain you can easily withstand as has been stated ad nausem.  

I don't get it.  Its like everyday they name another guy as untouchable it seems.  The Pirates hold all the chips if this is who you truly want.  Sucks, but thats life.  Try to make it as less painful as you can for pieces 3-5 or whatever, but the top pieces will be extremely painful.   You cant have multiple 'untouchable' prospects in a deal like this.  Establishing ONE guy as untouchable is somewhat reasonable for many  reasons, but not multiple guys you wont even consider basically, thats just being stupid, stubborn, obtuse or whatever.

If this team seriously wants a CF they will make it happen, or will just bellyache after about how 'they tried'.  

Its not like its not known by literally everyone what the biggest weakness on this team was going into the offseason, is now and will be into the season.

4 minutes ago, Das Texan said:

Its almost like they are trying to acquire a big CF and do it without it hurting some.  That's just not how it works.  Maybe in week 1 of the offseason when you are just fishing for deals, but when its time to get down to it, you have to realize that if you actually are serious about acquiring the best CF on the market in theory (the in theory being his market availability and no other better CF being marketed), you have to know it will be painful, but a pain you can easily withstand as has been stated ad nausem.  

I don't get it.  Its like everyday they name another guy as untouchable it seems.  The Pirates hold all the chips if this is who you truly want.  Sucks, but thats life.  Try to make it as less painful as you can for pieces 3-5 or whatever, but the top pieces will be extremely painful.   You cant have multiple 'untouchable' prospects in a deal like this.  Establishing ONE guy as untouchable is somewhat reasonable for many  reasons, but not multiple guys you wont even consider basically, thats just being stupid, stubborn, obtuse or whatever.

If this team seriously wants a CF they will make it happen, or will just bellyache after about how 'they tried'.  

Its not like its not known by literally everyone what the biggest weakness on this team was going into the offseason, is now and will be into the season.

Which is why I think it's Eury, Salas, and Fulton as 3/4 of the main guys, and you gotta relent and give them Sanchez/Bleday (i.e. someone MLB ready basically). Those first 3 aren't helping in 3 years, which lines up for Pitt GREAT but not Sandy/Rogers/squad right now for Marlins. Kick that fucking can and draft well to make up for this in the farm.

Alternatively, you can do a cheaper version of this for Laureano/Kemp/Trivino

And even cheaper for Hays/Sulser and absorb Kiermaier or maybe even Hicks (and ditch Aguilar)

All of these scenarios gets you 5+ WAR on paper for 2022, with years of control.

Some creativity and risk taking is needed. Look at how awesome Meyer and Luzardo looked, and Cabrera and Sixto are still around. Get that extra 2-3 wins in April, May, and June now doing this pre-season to not panic more in July and hope to make more ground.

Finish the job!

1 hour ago, MarlinsLou said:

Pitt does have an excellent farm. It's important to see their vision. Long term (end of 2023-24), they are something like this (on paper):

C - Davis, Rodriguez
1B - _______
2B - Gonzales, plus variety of 45/40+ guys
SS - Cruz (if he stays there), Peguero
3B - Hayes
CF - Reynolds, and they have two FV45 types (Swaggerty, Frazier)
OF - _______ (but leftovers from above)

Top End SP - _______ and __________
Mid-SP - Brubaker, Preister, Contreras, multiple other FV45/40 Types
Bullpen - Bednar, old friend Thompson, Wilson, Keller, Howard, and (leftovers from above and variety FV40 types)

Their top 6 needs are clear - they need (1) top end SP, (2) More top end SP, (3) probably another SS/2B type (as Cruz may outgrow and move somewhere like corner OF or DH), and generally, (4) OF depth and maybe this moves to # 3 if they move Reynolds, but could lower if Cruz moves, (5) more SP as you can never have enough, and (6) 1B/DH bats, but easier to get them in FA so deprioritized.

Reynolds works into their contending plan for sure with 4 years of control - they are just 2 years (and getting 2 major SP cough thank god for Sandy and Rogers) behind the Marlins here. They too will have payroll to spend eventually. Plus, they have a top 5 pick this year and can take a college player. I imagine they take best available college 1B/OF/SP, with their hope a SP makes the most sense there, and are planning on spending in 2024 and get two major players.

So if you are the Marlins, I think you need to solve 4 of these problems for Pittsburgh for them to move Reynolds. That makes it worth their while, plus they do open up some payroll with Reynolds to theoretically spend on something else so that helps them somewhat.

What do they have to trade?

Two pitchers - Eury/Meyer/Cabrera and Sixto/Eder/Fulton. It's going to hurt, but Reynolds is great
OF - Bleday/Burdick/Sanchez. Again, it's going to hurt. I think Sanchez makes sneaky sense here with Marlins OF depth. Bleday/Burdick - Reynolds - Garcia absolutely works for 4 seasons and they can deal with it until Bleday/Burdick get to the bigs. Wendle can play a lot of 3B and pop Anderson out.
SS - Watson/Salas/Morisette/Nunez

It's a bananas deal if it's going to happen, so that's why the Marlins have to ask for Bednar also, and maybe they chuck in 1-2 more guys outside the top 15 to make that make sense. I think you identify one untouchable - and it's clearly Watson. You then move on from there.

I think it's something like (1) Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, (2) Sixto/Bleday/Sanchez, (3) Eder/Burdick/Salas, (4) Fulton/Morisette/Nunez, (5) Jerar (some DH hope), (6) DLC (as who cares), and (7) outside top 20 guy.

It's choosing your own adventure there to get them two SP, an OF, and SS. I think that is very hard for them to pass up. I think they'd want whatever SP first, Bleday/Sanchez, Salas, and Fulton as 2-3-4. And that works.

What do we care if this is the team short and long-term). I spy 9 starting pitchers (8 of which have top of the rotation potential...sorry Hernandez), a top 10 bullpen, superstar potential at 2B (Jazz), SS (Watson), CF (Reynolds), and a corner OF slot (Bleday/Sanchez). And..... this team is CHEAP for YEARS. They have excellent 2022 draft picks as well - COLLEGE PLAYER!!!!

Stallings, Fortes (Mack and backup types in pipeline)
Aguilar, Cooper (Lewin in pipeline)
Jazz (I. Lewis, Morisette, Cappe in pipeline)
Rojas, Berti (Watson, Nunez in pipeline)
Anderson/Wendle platoon (_________ in pipeline)
CF Reynolds (______ in pipeline)
C-OF Garcia, Sanchez/Bleday (Burdick in pipeline)
Soler (________ no DH in pipeline, maybe a trickle down)

Sandy, Pablo, Hernandez (Two of Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, and Sixto in pipeline)
Rogers, Luzardo (Eder in pipeline)
Bender, Bednar, Floro, Pop, Head (McCambley and many others in pipeline)
Bleier, Okert (Velez in pipeline)

 

They need to get over this. I'm taking Eury/Meyer/Cabrera, Sanchez/Bleday, Salas, and Fulton off this team and you can't find a weakness (although they do need some 1B/3B, CF, and more SP in the pipeline but that's what the draft and IFA is for. You can't have it all).

 

I think a perfect example is what we just saw the Braves do.  Once they knew Freddie wasn't going to be back, they identified (granted, it wasn't that hard) a huge hole (giggity) in the lineup.  They knew that filling that gap (giggity x 2) wasn't going to be cheap but they did it with Matt Olson.  That may be the difference between a "sustainable winner" and us.  DO THE F#%KING TRADE!!!!

Edited March 23, 20224 yr by knglover

28 minutes ago, MarlinsLou said:

Which is why I think it's Eury, Salas, and Fulton as 3/4 of the main guys, and you gotta relent and give them Sanchez/Bleday (i.e. someone MLB ready basically). Those first 3 aren't helping in 3 years, which lines up for Pitt GREAT but not Sandy/Rogers/squad right now for Marlins. Kick that fucking can and draft well to make up for this in the farm.

Alternatively, you can do a cheaper version of this for Laureano/Kemp/Trivino

And even cheaper for Hays/Sulser and absorb Kiermaier or maybe even Hicks (and ditch Aguilar)

All of these scenarios gets you 5+ WAR on paper for 2022, with years of control.

Some creativity and risk taking is needed. Look at how awesome Meyer and Luzardo looked, and Cabrera and Sixto are still around. Get that extra 2-3 wins in April, May, and June now doing this pre-season to not panic more in July and hope to make more ground.

Finish the job!

@MarlinsLou What are your thoughts on Kyle Lewis?  The Mariners are in need of a 5th starter.  Their outfield is also stacked, and J Rod will be up soon as well.  

I know Lewis's prospect status has faded a little but he did have success in MLB initially.  He can probably be had for E. Hernandez. I know he's not Reynolds or Laureano but there is plenty of upside there. 

man, ya'll remember when we were tied to Buxton as well? seems like ages ago.  Clearly the Twins are trying to actually WIN as many games as possible though.

15 minutes ago, Rydawg said:

@MarlinsLou What are your thoughts on Kyle Lewis?  The Mariners are in need of a 5th starter.  Their outfield is also stacked, and J Rod will be up soon as well.  

I know Lewis's prospect status has faded a little but he did have success in MLB initially.  He can probably be had for E. Hernandez. I know he's not Reynolds or Laureano but there is plenty of upside there. 

For Hernandez, absolutely (I think it would be more). But - he's not a true CF I don't believe. Defense metrics are poor in CF. I'm buying though for sure if the price is right and hoping for a change of scenery rebound.

That being said, if we teeter into the Brandon Marsh line of thought and go prospect, I'd take a BIG swing on Kelenic from them. Use Pablo/Cooper in a much larger deal, and find an innings eater to bridge to Cabrera/Meyer/Sixto moving to rotation in the summer. Make it worth their while.

All of these are better ideas than Sanchez/Garcia in CF + DeShields/Berti on the bench.

25 minutes ago, knglover said:

I think a perfect example is what we just saw the Braves do.  Once they knew Freddie wasn't going to be back, they identified (granted, it wasn't that hard) a huge hole (giggity) in the lineup.  They knew that filling that gap (giggity x 2) wasn't going to be cheap but they did it with Matt Olson.  That may be the difference between a "sustainable winner" and us.  DO THE F#%KING TRADE!!!!

See that's another CF - PACHE. Let's just go team by team and literally all of baseball has a better set up than the Marlins. It's defense first with him, but how much would Oakland want for him? They have Laureano still and can figure that shit out as a 2-3 year build. Pache is a better idea than Sanchez/Garcia in CF + DeShields/Berti on the bench. The hypotheticals are endless with a prospect war chest running 10-15 deep of great/good names.

1 hour ago, Michael said:

They are ... just not at the asking prices.

Which I don't necessarily agree with, overpay if you have to.

Overpay to WIN NOW.

29 minutes ago, taiwanmarlin said:

Overpay to WIN NOW.

Footnote - But it's not an overpay if you still have a 3-5 year pipeline at MLB level for nearly every position, and even with Reynolds on the book, payroll is very low. Remember, Soler is likely an opt-out, Aguilar will be gone, Floro gone, and that alone clears $20 million for 2023, and the only raises are Sandy, and arbitration for stallings, Cooper, Anderson, Wendle, Reynolds, Pablo, and Hernandez. That's probably a $5m decrease in payroll. And Pablo and Hernandez may be gone too if Luzardo, Meyer, and Cabrera can all move to rotation next year, with a fast rising Eder who is now healthy.  And one of Anderson/Wendle may be expendable if they can find a younger 2B/3B type somewhere. So you can conceivable think payroll goes DOWN $15-20m next year if mostly everything works out and they have everything figured out besides some bench bats and depth arms, or they keep some of those guys and it's high-$80s.

Trade for a CF. Finish the job.

It's basically this for 2023 at something in the $60s of millions. Or Soler, both of Anderson/Wendle, and Pablo are kept, and it's high-$80s or so. Needing BENCH bats and depth arms so this isn't going above $100m, if not even $90m.

Stallings, Forte
Lewin, _____ (Add $4m to keep Cooper, $15m if Soler doesn't opt)
Jazz
Rojas, ______
Anderson/Wendle, ______ (Or keep both and add $6m)
Sanchez/Bleday (One is traded for Reynolds in package)
Reynolds
Garcia, Burdick(primary DH with Lewin/other 1B)

Sandy, Rogers, Luzardo, Cabrera/Meyer, ______ (Add $5m to keep Pablo)
Bender, Bednar, Cabrera/Meyer, Sixto, Pop/Head/Holloway/Whoever 
Bleier, Okert/Velez/whoever, _______

Top prospects not above - Watson, 2022 # 1 pick, Eder, Mack, 2022 # 2 pick, I. Lewis, Morisette, McCambley, etc. 
(Eury, Salas, and Fulton go to Pittsburgh in this hypothetical, along with Sanchez and Bleday)

The farm isn't the best, but after 2023, your free agents are Rojas, Anderson/Wendle, and Cooper. That's it. There would be money for a veteran here to get some SS/3B help and obviously we're not all looking to Watson to be the savior for 1 of those.

After 2024 Stallings and Bleier(option) (and Soler if still around). That's it. Things start getting expensive here with arbitration for Rogers and gang, but Watson/Eder/Mack/others hopefully supplant this quickly so they are still maintaining a sub-$100m payroll so they can get a free agent or three.

The whole team is radically controlled. Where is the harm of getting Reynolds and Bednar Marlins? Where is it? Give Pittsburgh Eury/Sanchez-Bleday/Salas/Fulton/throw-ins and be done with this. Draft well + IFA another Cabrera/Eury/Lewis/Salas and keep the party going.

21 hours ago, hovertical said:

every Rays fan I know hates Kevin Kiermaier and wants him gone with a passion because he doesn't have much to offer in the way of batting ability so I'm sure that means he'd fit right in here.  I know he plays a fantastic CF but i really don't want him here as it'll do nothing to help the offense at all.  I'd rather give up some better prospects for a guy who offers a little more than pure defense.

 

i guess I shouldn't say EVERY rays fan i know - there are some females I know that go gaga for the dude - but the people who actually care about on-field performance are looking for a change.

I think the idea of Kiermaier was as more of a backup role to a lesser CF addition.

20 hours ago, Rydawg said:

I've seen the term prospect hugging in this thread alot.  I'm ok with that because the previous ownership would blow our farm system constantly for garbage. Just think back to how many times they traded Luis Castillo for crap? 

We can't have it both ways. There has to be a balance.  I know we have to give to get but if it's going to costs us the farm, especially a farm as stacked ours, it'd  better be for a true stud.  

Except I think they're swinging too far the other way.

 

Loria would trade the top guy from a depleted/empty system for guys that weren't top talent guys.

 

Conversely, this group is seemingly unwilling to deplete much of anything from a stacked system.

Maybe the Marlins should look at what the Dolphins have done last 2 days.

You play to win the game.

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/mlb/miami-marlins/article259612989.html

 

This is a good read. The Marlins' trade talks for Laureano were more advanced than Reynolds. They also pursued trading for Hernandez with Toronto

1 hour ago, MarlinsLou said:

Maybe the Marlins should look at what the Dolphins have done last 2 days.

You play to win the game.

it's so weird being a Marlins fan and a Dolphins fan.  Ross has never shied away from throwing big contracts out there - they just never seem to work out. Meanwhile Sherman over there literally needs to just trade a couple high end prospects for a CF and he's all. NAH...

One spends tons of money

the other steals tons of money

net result is the same

 

sure does make the offseason a HELLUVA lot more exciting though and to me, it shows he at least wants to win.  Tua has zero excuses this year if he fails. 

35 minutes ago, hovertical said:

it's so weird being a Marlins fan and a Dolphins fan.  Ross has never shied away from throwing big contracts out there - they just never seem to work out. Meanwhile Sherman over there literally needs to just trade a couple high end prospects for a CF and he's all. NAH...

One spends tons of money

the other steals tons of money

net result is the same

 

sure does make the offseason a HELLUVA lot more exciting though and to me, it shows he at least wants to win.  Tua has zero excuses this year if he fails. 

And this is partially what this is all about - that emphasized text is how you run a business. Teams lose. The Cubs sold out and been relevant for 100 years of losing. We have been battered as a fan base since 1998 except for a very brief period late May 2003-2005 when things were very exciting, and again for a very brief period around the new stadium when we thought things would change.

Throw as a fucking bone. You don't need 9 premium FV45+ or better prospects, including 10 SP with billions of years of control versus moving 3 of them for a star CF.

This is all moot if this is the strategy - wait and see posturing - but we should all be ANGRY they are stopping at third base with Soler/Garcia/Stallings/Wendle and not sending the runner home. Send the runner home! No one will blame you if it doesn't work out. Make an effort! The bar is so low that TRYING to win as the Marlins is GREAT SUCCESS.

Plus, look at regional competition. The Heat are in first and never rebuild because they are brilliant. The Panthers somehow may actually win the Stanley Cup and have a multi year run coming. The Dolphins are doing super fun things and going for it. The Canes signed Mario Cristobal and decided they are going to spend to be good after 20 years. The freaking Canes basketball team is in the Sweet 16. And then Roman Quinn is playing CF half the time with a bottom 6 or 7 payroll and a horde of prospects, some of whom may crack the 2025 roster (in the summer months, maybe). This is the move Marlins? Wait around another year after a 4 year tear down trading 2 MVPs, when every other major team in town is making awesome headline grabbing moves literally in the last 6 months including today?